Posted on 02/25/2005 7:42:54 AM PST by Pendragon_6
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughterinlaw against her mother-in-law–
a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.’
"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." ~ Matthew 10:34-39
It wouldn't be schism if those who held to the Ten Commandments and God's Word departed.
Those buggerer sycophants that stayed behind would be the schism!
But, gee, wasn't Christ supposed to be about tolerance and inclusiveness ? /sarcasm
Good for you, but I am not that dedicated for the church (oh sure, everyone should be, but they aren't).
By leaving the church (or not being active), I am telling them I don't respect them or admire their lack of action in defense of the victims. Some of them damaged for life! - what some of those 'priests' did, it's so horrendous and REPULSIVE that it can not put aside easily, but the WORSE of all is how the CC responded to it. Look, we all know what has happened... or not? (not rumors after all!).
I will respect the CC when they deserve it, when I admire them again.
Not for a while though.
fyi
To understand the issue and to realize that the schism was preplanned we have to return to 1979. That was the year when the ECUSA adopted a canon that became known as the "Dennis Canon".(A canon is a rule or especially body of rules.)
The "Dennis canon" specifies that all property held by a parish, even if deeded to that parish, is held in trust for the diocese. As such, it has made it extremely hard, if not impossible, for a parish that desires to leave ECUSA to do so and retain its property--meaning that if orthodox believers leave, they leave their property in the hands of the revisionists.
Shortly before the November 2 consecration of the Rev. V. Gene Robinson, an active homosexual, as Bishop of New Hampshire.A well-known liberal Episcopal priest(Rev. Harold Lewis) and a layman(Senior Warden, Philip Richard Roberts) in the conservative Diocese of Pittsburgh filed a lawsuit on October 23, seeking to prevent congregations from taking church property if they part company with the U.S. Episcopal Church (ECUSA) over the appointment of an openly homosexual bishop.
Lewis, told the Associated Press that the lawsuit "has nothing to do with Gene Robinson; this is not about homosexuality...This is about the Episcopal Church...The court, I think, will uphold our position because the people of [ECUSA] in this diocese are entitled to the use and the enjoyment of the property."
While I am not a conspiracy fan...it smells.
If one goes to the website:-
http://www.episcopalchurch.org/research.htm?menupage=4513
Click Fast Facts.
The 2003 Total investments of Congregations is...
US $3,605,393,338
Using ECUSA's own figures the annual income is...
US $2,044,377,792
Follow the money. It is not about quaint white clapboard churches.
Perhaps the most important thing to know is that most of the USBishops LIE ALL THE TIME to Rome about their Diocesan situations.
Following that, the next most important thing to know is that the Pope cannot, in justice, simply FIRE priests who are accused--they must be convicted!
Next, you should understand that priests are the responsibility of their BISHOP--not the Pope. So when you have criminal conspiracies, it's not exactly the Pope's fault.
Yes, there is a big lacuna here: why doesn't the Pope FIRE the Bishops who are co-conspirators and who are guilty as Hell? I don't know that, but theories abound...
I think the U.S. branch has less than 2 million of those members.
Wonderful quotes.
1Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To the called [ones], having been sanctified by God the Father and having been kept in Jesus Christ. 2May mercy and peace and love be multiplied to you*!
3Beloved, making all diligence [or, while I was making every effort] to be writing to you* concerning the common salvation, I had necessity to write to you* urging [you*] to be contending earnestly for the faith having been handed down once for all [time] to the holy ones [or, saints]. 4For certain people wormed their way in, the ones having been marked out long ago for this judgment, godless [ones], perverting the grace of our God into flagrant sexual immorality and denying our only Master, God, and Lord--Jesus Christ [or, the only Master God and our Lord Jesus Christ].
5But I want to remind you*, you* knowing this once [and] for all, that the Lord having saved [or, delivered] a people out of [the] land of Egypt, afterward destroyed the ones not having believed. 6And angels, the ones not having kept their own domain, but having left their own habitation, He has kept under darkness in everlasting chains for [the] judgment of [the] great Day. 7Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, in a similar manner to these [angels], having indulged in sexual sin and having gone after different flesh [fig., having engaged in homosexual sex], are exhibited [as] an example of suffering [the] divine justice of eternal fire.
8Likewise indeed even these dreaming ones defile [the] flesh and regard authority as nothing [or, reject authority], blaspheme glories [fig., angelic beings]. 9But Michael the archangel, when contending with the Devil, he was arguing about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous judgment, but he said, “May [the] Lord rebuke you!”
10But these indeed slander as many [things] as they do not know [or, understand], but as many [things] as they understand by natural instinct (like the irrational animals), by these they are destroyed [or, corrupted].
11How horrible it will be to them! Because they traveled in [fig., followed] the way of Cain, and for pay they plunged into the deception of Balaam, and they perished in the rebellion of Korah.
12These are hidden rocks in the sea [fig., hidden dangers] in your* love-feasts [fig., fellowship meals], feasting together without fear, shepherding [fig., caring only for] themselves, clouds without water, being carried along by winds, late autumn [i.e., harvest season] trees without fruit, twice having died, having been uprooted, 13wild waves of [the] sea, splashing up their own shames like foam, wandering stars [fig., stars out of their orbits], for whom the thick gloom of the darkness [fig., the gloomy hell] has been reserved into [the] age [fig., forever].
14Now Enoch, [in] the seventh [generation] from Adam, also prophesied about these [people], saying, “Look! [The] Lord came with countless thousands of His holy ones, 15to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly ones among them concerning all their ungodly deeds which they committed in an ungodly way, and concerning all the harsh [words] which ungodly sinners spoke against Him.” 16These are grumblers, complainers, going [fig., living] according to their lusts, and their mouth speaks swollen [fig., pompous] [words], admiring faces [fig., flattering people] for the sake of [gaining] an advantage.
17But you*, beloved, remember the words, the ones having been spoken previously by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, 18that they were saying to you*, that in [the] last time there will be scoffers, going [fig., living] according to their own ungodly lusts. 19These are the ones causing divisions, worldly, not having [the] Spirit.
20But you*, beloved, building yourselves up in your* most holy faith, praying in [the] Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in [the] love of God, waiting for [or, expecting] the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. 22And be having mercy on some, making a distinction [between persons], 23but others be saving with fear, snatching [them] out of a fire, hating even the tunic [or, garment] having been polluted [or, defiled] by the flesh.
24Now to the One being able to keep them from stumbling and to make [you*] stand in the presence of His glory unblemished [or, blameless], with great happiness-- 25to [the] only wise God our Savior, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and authority, both now and to all the ages [fig., forevermore]! So be it!
One big problem is that the Church went along with the tenor of the times and dealt with the abuser in the way suggested by the 'experts', and sent them out to be 'healed', listened to the folks who said they were ready to go back to ministry, then let them back in. Unfortunately, some places had a revolving door policy, and the same people kept going in and out of these places. They should have restricted their ministries after the first rumors proved true, then if convicted, laicized them. It would have saved a lot of grief on the part of subsequent victims. The Bishops were too busy Pastoring the abusers and not the victims.
What is not mentioned in some of these instances, though, is that when the abuse first took place, and the priest was suspected, the parents of the victim didn't press charges. The victims, now grown are coming forward, and the people in charge of the Dioceses now have no idea what went on those many years ago.
It has been a mess all around, but if you'll notice, most of these cases took place in the 70's or at the latest in the 80's. The climate has now changed. The mental health community now understands that pedophiles cannot be rehabilitated, and seminaries are beginning to understand that they are not doing someone who has a homosexual inclination any good by letting him enter the priesthood, no matter how much he thinks he's 'called'.
Sorry it took me a while to respond.
I appreciate your explanations but I am still not convinced. It is very difficult for me to give the CC a free pass on this one. If a sex offender comes out of prison and does what some of these priest did, that would be OK! Meaning, that would be highly expected and even logical since many of them come out of prison worse than when they went in. Killer kill again, rapers, robbers keep doint it.
But when a priest uses his position of authority and trust and like a cold snake, slowly approaches his pray, waits still for the chance to strike, (yes, I see it this ugly), it just INFURIATES me!... etc, etc, etc, etc.........
I still could say a lot more about how I feel about this but I will not for the time being. I do realize many of you have great respect for this pope and considering he is struggling for his life and out of respect for eveyone, I will shup up for now.
I confess I am not an 'authority' in the way the church is run (the nuts and bolts). I have no idea how much does the pope know about the problems on a given country or continent. I don't know who works for him or keeps him informed on issues... well, just like I said, I will cease for now.
I would like to know more about it. If anyone can recomend books, or articles, relating to this particular issue, I would appreciate it.
It is quite suprising that Anglican church abroad, at least on this issue, seems to be more conservative than the branch here in the States.
"primates"
Are they calling them monkeys?
FAMILY NEWS IN FOCUS STORIES:
---------------------------------------------
Anglicans Prepare to Separate from Pro-Gay Churches by Keith Peters, Washington, D.C., correspondent
SUMMARY: The breach is widening in the Episcopal-Anglican family. An ultimatum has been delivered on the endorsement of homosexuality.
The Worldwide Anglican Communion has delivered an ultimatum to the Episcopal Church USA (ECUSA) and the Anglican Church of Canada: Stop endorsing homosexuality or leave the Anglican Communion.
Both churches must cease ordaining homosexuals and presiding over same-sex ceremonies by 2008 or the worldwide body will sever direct ties. Meanwhile, the archbishops requested that the two churches "voluntarily withdraw from the governing body of the Anglican Communion."
The Rev. Ellis Brust of the American Anglican Council called the delivery of the ultimatum a pivotal moment in Anglican history.
"Biblical faithfulness and the teaching and practice of Anglicanism have been reaffirmed," Brust said, "and the revisionist theology that has taken hold in the Episcopal Church and in the church in Canada -- as well as other significant parts of the Communion -- has been rejected."
Faith McDonald of the Institute on Religion and Democracy said homosexuality may be the flashpoint, but the problem really goes back to leaving behind Scripture.
"(This involves) not believing in the transformation by Christ of individuals to a place beyond their own cravings and their own weaknesses to the power of the Cross," she said.
Brust said what happens to ECUSA now really lies with the laity.
"I think it's mom and pop in the pews that really understand the gravity of the situation," he said. "Will the ordained leaders of the church turn around, repent and return? That is truly my prayer."
The presiding bishop of ECUSA, The Very Rev. Frank Griswold, issued a statement saying some will not be pleased with the action of the Anglican primates, but there is now an opportunity for a dialogue on the issues.
FOR MORE IMFORMATION: To learn more about the situation, please see the American Anglican Council Web site.
http://www.americananglican.org/
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