Just another example of the Canadian government holding us back.
Posted on 02/22/2005 12:40:33 PM PST by NorthOf45
Canada's other Avro tragedy
National Post
February 22, 2005
Re: Howard And Me: Don Rogers Remembers Howard Hughes As The Man Who Could Have Sent Canada's Aircraft Industry Soaring, Feb. 18.
The Avro C-102 Jetliner first flew on Aug. 10, 1949, two weeks after the first jet transport, the flawed deHavilland Comet, briefly flew in England. The major difference was that the Jetliner was essentially perfect right from the start, and could have gone into production in a very short time. This was eight years ahead of Boeing's first passenger jet, the 707. When the Jetliner flew from Toronto to New York in less than an hour on March, 10, 1950, the Americans went crazy for it. The crew and staff were treated to a motorcade, and offers from airlines to demonstrate the plane flooded in. Avro complied, and it flew from Chicago to New York in one hour, 42 minutes, at 459 mph., 200 mph faster than the best fighter planes of the Second World War. It maintained sea-level cabin pressure at altitude; flew higher (above the weather) than propeller-driven transports; was quieter, more comfortable, and burned less-expensive kerosene rather than Avgas and had comparable operating costs to the airliners of the day.
With the start of the Korean conflict, the United States Air Force sent letters of intent to Avro Canada, for up to 100 aircraft. Private airlines were also seriously considering the Jetliner. Yet instead of Avro being allowed to seize the opportunity and put Canada on top of the world, the Canadian government killed it.
The government sent a "stop all Jetliner work" order to Avro (the longer Jetliner Mark 2 was half-completed), and ordered the firm to instead concentrate on producing the CF-100 fighter jet. The problem was the CF-100 was just a prototype. It wouldn't go into production until late 1952. In hindsight, the Jetliner could have contributed much more to the Korean conflict as a transport or mid-air refueller, etc. No other such plane existed in the world.
When word got out that the Jetliner would not go into production, Avro Canada received many incredulous letters. Avro still held out hope, and continued to demonstrate the plane. Howard Hughes was very interested, but in the end the Canadian government got its way.
If one were to look at the size and economics of the airline industry as a whole, this may well have been a bigger tragedy than the forced destruction of the magnificent Avro Arrow, and ultimately Avro itself.
Mikk Jogi, Udora, Ont.
Just another example of the Canadian government holding us back.
What? He must mean 659 MPH...but even that could be wrong when you take into account the German ME-262. Our Corsairs (F4Us) and Mustangs (P51s) were regularly flying much faster than 400 MPH.
Probably not. 459 mph top speed was only about 100 mph faster, if that, than the best propliners of the day (the Lockheed Constellation and the Douglas DC-7), and I don't think that was even as fast as the Comet. When the swept-wing jetliners (the 707 and DC-8) came out with their 100+ mph boost in speed and their longer range, that sounded the death knell for the Comet, and I expect it would've done the same to this Jetliner as well. Although much of the Comet design survives to this day in the British Nimrod.
The 707 and DC-8 were such quantum leaps over anything else that was out there--including the Comet--that nothing could've diminished the impact they made on aviation. It is interesting, however, that despite this Avro being an apparently quite capable airplane, I'd never heard of it before at all and I thought I was quite an aviation buff.
I wonder if this plane was really as good as the author made it out to be, or if there's more to this story than just Canadian governmental incompetence.
}:-)4
ME 262 - 540 mph http://www.answers.com/topic/messerschmitt-me-262
P-51D - 437 http://www.answers.com/P-51
P-80 - 594 mph.
So it could barely outrun a piston engined P-51, and was about 100 mph slower than the "best" fighter planes of WWII.
Even if you define "best" as the Brewster Buffalo (considered outdated at the onset of US involvement in the war) you barely beat it by 100 mph. (Buffalo - 321 mph)
Specifications
Period: Postwar
Uses: Prototype
First Flight: 1949
Manufacturer: A.V. Roe Canada Ltd., Canada
Wing Span: 98 ft 1 in (29.9 m)
Length: 82 ft 5 in (25.1 m)
Height: 26 ft 5 1/2 in (8.1 m)
Weight, Empty: 37,000 lb (16,783 kg)
Weight, Gross: 65,000 lb (29,484 kg)
Cruising Speed: 420 mph (676 km/h)
Maximum Speed: 500 mph (805 km/h)
Rate of Climb: 2,220 ft (677 m)/min
Service Ceiling: 40,300 ft (12,283 m)
Range: 1,250 mi (2,000 km)
Power Plant: four Rolls-Royce Derwent 5/17, 3,600 lb (1,633 kg), static thrust centrifugal flow turbojet engines
http://www.exn.ca/FlightDeck/Aircraft/hangar2.cfm?StoryName=Avro%20C-102%20Jetliner
You posted faster than me, but I did look up the speeds. It couldn't even outrun a Buffalo by 200 mph. Sloppy reporting here, and you have to wonder if elsewhere, in this story.
Still not as sad as the Arrow.
It's heartbreaking to think of those Arrows being destroyed.
We should keep in mind that the first flight was in 1949. When did the 707 and DC-8 come out? The technology put into the C-102 would have advanced over that period I would think. The learning curve was pretty steep at that time for this type of plane.
It is just a commentary. But yes, there appears to be some errors.
With those specs...it is apparent that the reporter is glaringly ignorant about WWII fighter planes.
You might want to look at machinations within the Canadian stock market and the possible sale of nonexistent securities as an explanation of what happened to Avro Canada. What happened to the last Arrow, anyway...?
With the specs posted by Northof45, it is clear that the top end of this aircraft was actually only barely comparable to allied WW II fighters, and slower than the German jets.
The blame lies squarely with C.D. Howe. As Armaments Minister, he essentially seized control of Canada's economy during WWII and didn't let go after the war ended. The Jetliner was developed without any government involvement but was killed because C.D. Howe believed that the state had the right to decide what private businesses could do with their factories. At one point, Howard Hughes even offered to finance a new production line to fill the Pan Am order but C.D. Howe still nixed it. This had nothing to do with needing to produce the CF100 and everything to do with satisfying a petty dictator's powerlust.
Too small, too slow, too little, too late. Other than that, a winner!
That may be true but it was still impressive for its time. To get anywhere near that performance would take a helluva lot of fuel because the prop tips would be transonic.
(((.)))
The 707 prototype first flew in 1954. The Canadian plane was much smaller than a Super Constellation or a DC-7. It was closer in size to the proposed Douglas Skybus.
IIRC the first model was about 60 or 70 seats but they were planning to bring in stretched versions later. The biggest obstacles were (1) government-owned Trans Canada Air Lines did not want to be the first customer and (2) the Industry Minister never let go of his grip on industry after the war ended (companies needed the Minister's permission to produce anything).
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