"Rapture" Rapture - Repub's, the env., and the 2nd Coming: The origins of a liberal myth

The Daily Standard ^ | 14 February 2005 | John Hinderaker

[Lando Lincoln]

ONE OF LIBERALS' chief motivations these days is fear of the religious right. Ask people on the left to explain their loathing of President Bush or the Republican party, and the answer often comes around to Jerry Falwell, evangelicals, theocracy, and so on. The left's fear of conservative Christians is fed by a steady stream of news stories. Some are accurate: religious conservatives oppose gay marriage. Some are fanciful: Sponge Bob Square Pants has been accused of being a homosexual. And some are simply false.

The left's most recent salvo against the religious right was launched by an obscure online environmentalist journal called Grist. In October of last year, Grist published an article titled "The Godly Must Be Crazy," the thesis of which was that conservative Christians are deliberately bent on despoiling the environment:

Many Christian fundamentalists feel that concern for the future of our planet is irrelevant, because it has no future. They believe we are living in the End Time, when the son of God will return, the righteous will enter heaven, and sinners will be condemned to eternal hellfire. They may also believe, along with millions of other Christian fundamentalists, that environmental destruction is not only to be disregarded but actually welcomed--even hastened--as a sign of the coming Apocalypse.

We are not talking about a handful of fringe lawmakers who hold or are beholden to these beliefs. The 231 legislators (all but five of them Republicans) who received an average 80 percent approval rating or higher from the leading religious-right organizations make up more than 40 percent of the U.S. Congress.

Grist's fevered accusation might have languished in the less-traveled corners of the Internet had it not been taken up by a more respectable voice of the left: Bill Moyers. On December 1, 2004, the Center for Health and the Global Environment gave Moyers its "Global Environment Citizen Award." Moyers's speech on the occasion cribbed liberally from, and at times quoted verbatim, his "favorite online environmental journal," Grist. He characterized the Bush administration's environmental policies as "based on theology" and therefore "delusional." He repeated Grist's claim that Republicans, believing that the end of the world is at hand, are deliberately despoiling the environment.

For evidence, Moyers harkened back to the Reagan administration:

Remember James Watt, President Ronald Reagan's first secretary of the interior? [Grist] reminded us recently of how James Watt told the U.S. Congress that protecting natural resources was unimportant in light of the imminent return of Jesus Christ. In public testimony he said, "after the last tree is felled, Christ will come back."

Beltway elites snickered. The press corps didn't know what he was talking about. But James Watt was serious.

Here, though, it was Moyers, not James Watt, who was trafficking in delusion and fantasy. For Watt said no such thing. The quote that Moyers attributed to Watt is fictitious. It originated in a 1990 book called Setting Free the Captives by an eccentric former circus ringmaster named Austin Miles. Miles didn't claim that Watt made the bogus statement to Congress, however; that embellishment was another layer of fabrication, added by Grist and repeated by Moyers.

As it happens, however, Watt did once mention the Second Coming while testifying before Congress. In February 1981, Watt told the House Interior Committee the precise opposite of what Moyers alleged:

That is the delicate balance the Secretary of the Interior must have, to be steward for the natural resources for this generation as well as future generations.

I do not know how many future generations we can count on before the Lord returns, whatever it is we have to manage with a skill to leave the resources needed for future generations.

Watt's Congressional testimony is consistent with the approach toward environmental policy that he followed throughout his career. In a letter to President Reagan written in October 1983, Watt said:

[B]ecause of our commitment to good conservation practices, we have set a remarkable record of increasing protection for the fragile and ecologically important conservation lands of the Nation. . . . In 1983 alone, we have, through trade, donations and purchase, added more park and wildlife land to the federal estate than any previous Administration added in a single year since Alaska was purchased in 1867.

Our stewardship commitment extends to preserving for future generations those historic sites and structures that pay tribute to America's past and the principles upon which our Nation was founded.

Because of our concern for and commitment to stewardship, we have accelerated the efforts to bring about the recovery of . . . endangered plants and animals. By the end of this year, we will have approved or reviewed nearly three times as many recovery plans as were developed in the four-year period 1977 to 1980.

So Moyers didn't just misquote Watt--he mischaracterized Watt's entire approach to environmental issues.

THE REST of Moyers's evidence for the Republicans' "rapturous" approach to environmental protection was equally flimsy. He cited the popularity of the Left Behind novels, in which the Second Coming is a plot element, but offered no support for the idea--ludicrous on its face--that these works of popular fiction are somehow driving the Bush administration's environmental policies. He referred to a speech in which Zell Miller quoted the Book of Amos:

"The days will come, sayeth the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land." He seemed to be relishing the thought.

But Moyers left out the rest of the quote: "Not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the word of the Lord." And, while Moyers implied that Miller had been talking about the environment, in fact his speech was about Janet Jackson's Super Bowl wardrobe malfunction.

Moyers's own speech had been reproduced only on the Internet until January 30, 2005, when the Minneapolis Star Tribune printed it as an op-ed. After the Star Tribune article appeared, James Watt contacted Power Line, hoping that we could help him counteract Moyers's smear. We did. Our post critiquing Moyers's speech resulted in Moyers apologizing to Watt, and the Star Tribune running a half-hearted correction. The Washington Post, which had repeated the fake James Watt quote, ran a somewhat more gracious correction.

However, while Moyers has admitted propagating a fake quotation, he hasn't backed off his accusation that Republicans in the grip of "rapture" are working to destroy the environment. In his apology, he repeated the substance of the slur and accused Watt of being a bad Christian. Nor have other media outlets stopped perpetuating the slur. Jon Carroll, writing in the San Francisco Chronicle, repeated Moyers's theme while acknowledging that the fictitious Watt quote was "not verifiable":

So read the Rapture Index. Consider its implications: One of George Bush's core constituencies is actively praying for environmental degradation. Its members are in fact praying for the end of the world, because the end of the world is the beginning of the fun part of salvation.

Let's look at the new budget through this lens, which is (I emphasize) neither fanciful nor satirical. Money for clean water: down.

And so on. The Moyers "rapture" speech has been picked up on countless websites, where it is fast becoming a standard liberal critique of the Bush administration.

All of this has happened without a single conservative, inside or outside of government, having ever drawn any connection, express or implied, between the supposed imminence of the Second Coming and any aspect of environmental policy. Which leaves one wondering which side of the political debate has substituted faith for reason.

John Hinderaker is a contributor to the blog Power Line and a contributing writer to The Daily Standard.

[unlearner]

"DO YOU KNOW WHO THE instead of christ is"

This is the man of sin who comes according to the power and working of Satan - a Satanic incarnation (or imitation of the Word Who became flesh). This coincides with the "Devil is come down unto you" at the abomination of desolation. We cannot know with certainty his human identity before he is revealed at the abomination of desolation. He appears to be among seven rulers who have historically persecuted God's people (Revelation 17:10). He is also from the lineage of the Romans (Europe) according to Daniel 9:26.

"the seal and trumps given to us for, do they not set for specific benchmarks for use to watch for"

Yes, they (particularly the seals) forewarn of Christ imminent return. We who believe in Jesus will not remain on the earth for the seven bowl judgments which fill up the wrath of God (Revelation 15:1). This is because "God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9). Christ's return will be immediately preceded by signs in the heaven's (Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 6:12-17).

You are correct that believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air immediately after the great tribulation. However, you are not distinguishing this from the end of Daniel's seventieth week. After the great tribulation ends Antichrist will continue in power until the very end of Daniel's seventieth week (Revelation 13:5).

There are some key distinctions from a generic post-tribulational rapture (that views the end of the great tribulation as the end of Daniel's seventieth week) and a "pre-wrath rapture" view. One, believers will escape from the day of God's wrath. Two, there are two events that are part of His coming again - the gathering of believers (dead and alive) to meet the Lord in the air, and His subsequent return to the earth to set up His kingdom.

I have already mentioned this and it may be rather difficult to understand due to not fitting the traditional paradigm. You may need to reread what I have said a few times for it to sink in. (That is not an insinuation about you, but it is difficult to follow, especially if you have many preconceptions about end times events.)

Concerning the two aspects of Christ's return, compare Matthew 24:31 and Matthew 13:41. At the end of the tribulation the angels gather the elect. At the end of the world the angels gather God's enemies. The first takes place in the air with the clouds of heaven. The second takes place when He returns to earth. What connects these two events as part of His coming again is His visible presence above the earth (Revelation 1:7). During this interval, believers will not be on the earth where God's wrath is being poured out (except for the elect of Israel who God has chosen for a special purpose). We will be with Christ.

If you cannot receive this teaching it is OK. Not everyone is able to. As there is a danger of expecting Christ sooner than He will arrive, there is also a danger in expecting Him later than His arrival. (See Matthew 24:42-44, 48; and Matthew 25:1-13).

Just remember to "watch and be ready".

[DannyTN]

I see your point that the Rapture Ready's argument against the Day of the Lord is not applicable since that's not what you were claiming, but rather that the rapture would occur after the revealing of the Anti-Christ.

I'm not convinced that the revealing of the anti-Christ and the Anti-Christ's abomination are the same thing. It seems to me that Christians will recognize the Anti-Christ prior to the abomination, since it says something to the effect that "even Christians would be fooled were it possible".

I read this as the Anti-Christ will be on the scene and will be revealed to the Christians for who he is, prior to the rapture. But I don't see it as necessarily setting the time for the rapture after the abomination occurs.

[sageb1]

I did not begin my studies until late in life. I would like to thank you and DannyTN, as well, for this discussion, as it has helped clarify much for me.

[unlearner]

"you were claiming... that the rapture would occur after the revealing of the Anti-Christ"

Specifically, the Lord will return not only after the revealing of Antichrist, but also after the time of trouble in which many will fall away (from professed faith in Christ). The Lord will return immediately after the signs in the sky occur at the end of the great tribulation. But remember how I have said that this is not the end of Daniel's seventieth week.

"I'm not convinced that the revealing of the anti-Christ and the Anti-Christ's abomination are the same thing."

We have a way to recognize who is and is not an Antichrist (and there are many). See 1 John 2:18-23 and 4:1-6. Further, the Antichrist is identified as being among seven rulers who come before him (Revelation 17:7-11). We also know that Antichrist is a man of European lineage who enters into a seven year treaty with Israel (Daniel 9:26-27). These are clues. So you are right that believers will not follow him. However, keep in mind that his claim to be God will not occur until the abomination of desolation (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

We know that the timing of Antichrist's revealing is connected to this event from Second Thessalonians 2. When you are able to identify what and who restrains Antichrist from desecrating the temple and launching his worldwide campaign of terror against saints, then you will see that this is plainly the time of his "revealing".

You may want to review my last post to you (#37) regarding who and what restrains the revealing of Antichrist. The restrainer is not identified in Paul's writing because the Thessalonians already knew who and what restrains this event. As I pointed out, this cannot be the Holy Spirit.

Understanding the identity of the restrainer is a key to understanding end times events.

[unlearner]

You might actually find it easier to understand the viewpoint I am giving because preconceived ideas seem to get in the way.

The viewpoints of DannyTN and Just mythoughts are the two most common ones being taught today. They are called "pre-tribulational" and "post-tribulational" respectively.

Both of these views do not distinguish the "day of the Lord" from the great tribulation and Daniel's seventieth week. But scripture makes this distinction.

(I am not trying to criticize DannyTN or Just mythoughts or their views, just pointing out the differences. There are many great Christians who take these positions.)

Upon closer examination what you find is that the "pre-tribulational" view is actually pre-seventieth-week. (The great tribulation actually begins in the middle of this prophetic "week".) The "post-tribulational" view is actually post-seventieth-week. (Daniel's seventieth week continues after the great tribulation comes to an end. This latter part is called the "day of the Lord" or the "day of wrath".)

What you will find is that either of these positions appear to be in harmony with scripture up to a point but then run into problems where they do not quite fit. The solution is a "pre-wrath rapture".

I can Fr-email you a more detailed explanation of this position.

[Just mythoughts]

Actually when one reads what the devil tempted Christ with, that was not done through a 'flesh' being.

There are no examples through out the word where the devil himself became an incarnate flesh being. We are told there is nothing new under the sun and for what you claim to be would indeed something 'new'. Even in the garden he was not in flesh when he seduced Eve. Paul tells us that those things that happened unto them for ensample (examples) and they are written for our admonition, (WARNING) upon whom the ends of the world (AGE)are come.

Now you find me an example where the devil was allowed to incarnate a flesh being at any point in time during this flesh age and you MIGHT be on to something. Big problem it is not written anywhere.
Written through out the OLD and the NEW we are given the different roles the devil has been allowed to play, not one time was the devil ever allowed to 'incarnate flesh'.

Why are we told those who claim to be Christians are so shamed that they would pray for mountains to fall upon them? And why would Christ say that there would be some whom claim Christian but he would say I never knew you?

Now if you have not learned who the instead of christ is, and Christ said "I have foretold you ALLL things", somebody has fed you a story that is simply not true.

[unlearner]

What I told you was directly from the Bible. I do not intend to get into a debate over the finer points of what Satan can and cannot do. Antichrist comes by the power and working of Satan. This is simultaneous with Satan being cast down by Michael. He is not Christ, but a false Christ, an imitation. So this "incarnation" I referred to is counterfeit. Whether Satan can "become flesh" is irrelevant to the point and simply a matter of your opinion or mine. There is no point in debating it. It is unprofitable.

"Why are we told those who claim to be Christians are so shamed that they would pray for mountains to fall upon them? And why would Christ say that there would be some whom claim Christian but he would say I never knew you?"

Those who hide in the rocks and mountains will be hiding from God's wrath. And well so, because this is what will follow. So I think fear would be more correct than shame.(See Luke 23:28-31.)

That there will be a "falling away" is repeatedly warned. See Matthew 24:10 where it says many will be offended. First Timothy 4:1 says "The Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith". And First Thessalonians 2:3 says that the day of the Lord will not come until first there is a falling away. This will occur when professing Christians encounter severe persecution initiated by the Satanically controlled Antichrist. Family members will betray one another and children will cause their parents to be executed.

In answer to your question, professing faith in Christ is not the same as having faith. Surely you will acknowledge that not everyone who claims to be a Christian actually is. In fact, many false Christs will come in Jesus name. I think you made a point similar to this yourself.

"somebody has fed you a story that is simply not true"

I am unsure what you are referring to here. Maybe you can elaborate on who you think the "man of sin" is and how my understanding does not agree with scripture, because I assure you that this is where I get my doctrine from.

[Just mythoughts]

Those who hide in the rocks and mountains will be hiding from God's wrath. And well so, because this is what will follow. So I think fear would be more correct than shame.(See Luke 23:28-31.)

What causes the 'fear' or shame?

"That there will be a "falling away" is repeatedly warned. See Matthew 24:10 where it says many will be offended. First Timothy 4:1 says "The Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith". And First Thessalonians 2:3 says that the day of the Lord will not come until first there is a falling away. This will occur when professing Christians encounter severe persecution initiated by the Satanically controlled Antichrist. Family members will betray one another and children will cause their parents to be executed."

The parable of the ten virgins gives a good description about the 'falling away'. Problem is that 5 of the virgins are foolish and do not have enough oil (truth) in their lamps. Now this is talking specifically about people who attend church and claim Christ. Something about what they are taught and believe causes them to be deceived.

So exactly what is the truth they are lacking?


In answer to your question, professing faith in Christ is not the same as having faith. Surely you will acknowledge that not everyone who claims to be a Christian actually is. In fact, many false Christs will come in Jesus name. I think you made a point similar to this yourself.

"somebody has fed you a story that is simply not true"

"I am unsure what you are referring to here. Maybe you can elaborate on who you think the "man of sin" is and how my understanding does not agree with scripture, because I assure you that this is where I get my doctrine from."

We are told starting in Genesis who the deceiver is, Paul even is so bold to use this example in IICorinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3. BUT I FEAR, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled (holy seduced) Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

OK something very simple happened in the Garden of Eden, which Paul here uses as a example of what is in store for some who do not understand that simplicity that is in Christ.

Christ continually warned about DECEPTION. Through out the Written Word we are continually given examples of the roles that the devil, the serpent, the accuser, the destroyer, the instead of christ has been and will again be allowed to play.

Ezekiel 28 tells us about Lucifer/Satan devil etc....

The devil himself tempted Christ, as an example of what would be offered to us.

[unlearner]

"What causes the 'fear' or shame?"

It is apparent from the various related passages that when Christ returns it will not be in secret but visible to the world. He will appear with "great power and glory". Believers will be taken out of the earth. Unbelievers will suddenly be confronted with their error and realize the fiery wrath of God is about to be poured out upon them. This is the cause of the fear.

The judgments upon the world in the last days will escalate. And God's judgment will not be arbitrary. He will avenge the saints who will have been martyred for Jesus sake, and He will punish those who rob His glory and give it to idols.

It seems to me you are hinting at the meaning of the strong delusion and believing a lie (or "the lie") as referring to Satan's tempting man to think he can be God. If I understand your point, you are correct. But you are stating (or understating) the obvious.

My point has been to show from scripture that the popular doctrines of pre-tribulationalism AND post-tribulationalism are both incomplete regarding the return of the Lord and the timing of end times events.

[Just mythoughts]

"My point has been to show from scripture that the popular doctrines of pre-tribulationalism AND post-tribulationalism are both incomplete regarding the return of the Lord and the timing of end times events."

Since we are told "TIME" has been shortened and there are clues given to the actual amount of "TIME" set forth for these events, maybe that would be the more important lesson to learn.

[Just mythoughts]

By the way to teach that anyone other than those who die a physical flesh death will go anywhere before that abomination of desolation gets dumped out of heaven by Michael is a strong delusion.

Ezekiel 13:16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the LORD GOD.

17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy People, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

18 And say, 'Thus saith the LORD GOD; Woe to the 'women' that sew pillows to all armholes =(sew together coverings upon all the joints of My hands: i.e. hide from the People the hands of God lifted up and stretched forth in judgment(Isa.26:11; 52:10) (armholes = My hands;), and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls!

Will ye hunt toe souls of My People, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

19 And will ye pollute ME among My People for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My People that hear your lies?

20 Wherefore thus saith the LORD GOD;

'Behold I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them FLY, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.


Sounds like a tribulation to me.

[unlearner]

It is not that time has been shortened but "those days" of tribulation (Matthew 24:21-22).

We know how much time is left from the beginning of the great tribulation (at the abomination of desolation according to verse 15). This is given in Daniel 12:11. It will be 1290 days.

The great tribulation will be shortened, not Daniel's seventieth week.

Of course it is not an unreasonable idea that the days being shortened simply meant that God had already limited the seventieth week to seven years. However, there are two reasons to think there is deeper meaning. One, Christ makes a special point of saying the days will be shortened. Two, knowing the exact length of the great tribulation would also give the exact time of Christ's return which we are told will be kept secret.

So it is more reasonable to conclude that the tribulation will begin in the middle of the seventieth week but will not last until its conclusion.

What will transpire during the remainder of Daniel's seventieth week? Answer: the outpouring of God's wrath - the bowl judgments of Revelation and at least some of the trumpet judgments.

A pre-wrath view of the return of the Lord is a true "post-tribulational" view as long as we recognize that the end of the tribulation does not coincide with the end of the seventieth week.

It is at the end of the great tribulation that believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air (Mark 13:24-27).

It is at the end of the seventieth week that Christ destroys the Antichrist, returns bodily to earth, and establishes the kingdom.

In the first event holy angels gather the elect. In the second event holy angel gather the wicked. These gatherings cannot happen at the same time. (See Matthew 13:41 and 24:31 & 41.) Note that some are taken and some are left when the elect are gathered.

There are two important lessons and commands to observe. One, be ready (Matthew 24:44). Two, be patient (James 5:7, 2 Thessalonians 3:5). There is a danger of expecting the Lord's return sooner than He will come. And there is the danger of thinking "my Lord delays His coming".

We obey both commands.

[unlearner]

The prophecy of Ezekiel that you cited may give a principle for how God deals with His people, but it was a prophecy of events that transpired already soon after Ezekiel delivered this warning.

See in Ezekiel 14 where the destruction of Jerusalem and the preservation of a remnant was prophesied. These predictions were fulfilled. Notice in 12:27-28 how that the prophecies were not for a far off time.

You said, "to teach that anyone other than those who die a physical flesh death will go anywhere before that abomination of desolation gets dumped out of heaven by Michael is a strong delusion".

This entire statement is wrong. First, when believers die physically we immediately enter the presence of the Lord (Philippians 1:20-24). Perhaps you are only referring to the physical resurrection. Yet the idea of this happening before the abomination of desolation (though incorrect) is not an example of strong delusion.

The abomination of desolation is not something that gets dumped out of heaven by Michael. Michael does play an important role, but he does not pour out this abomination. The scripture presents an overwhelmingly clear picture of what this abomination entails. Further, this prophecy was fulfilled in type (dual fulfillment) by Antiochus Epiphanies.

The abomination which makes desolate is when the Antichrist (a literal man, the man of sin) breaks his seven-year treaty with Israel by entering into and desecrating the temple. (The temple must first be rebuilt and the daily sacrifice restored.) He will defile the temple by setting up an idol and proclaiming himself to be God. He will, at this time, launch a campaign of terror against the saints.

To label other views of prophecy as the "strong delusion" is a very bad misrepresentation of this warning. To be sure there are some teachings of prophetic events that warrant severe reproof and even church discipline. The pre-tribulational view (though incorrect) is not one of them. The strong delusion mentioned in Second Thessalonians 2 is something that remains to happen. It is a future event that will happen AFTER the revealing of Antichrist. It will result in the world (through the deception of false miracles) following the Antichrist. All who receive this strong delusion will suffer eternal destruction.

It would be correct to warn believers not to think that the return of the Lord will exempt us from tribulation. That believers are called to endure tribulation is a certainty. It is impossible, however, for any true believer to be deceived into following Antichrist.

[Just mythoughts]

"The great tribulation will be shortened, not Daniel's seventieth week."

How can this be, consider Christ said TIME would be shortened not the events that would take place?

Also Christ Himself gave a huge clue about how long this would be.... Note we are not given the 'day' it will start but we are told what it is that starts that 'day' and how long time has been shortened to.

What about that WOE to them that teach the 'fly' away doctrine, it plainly says this is a prophesy.

[Just mythoughts]

OK I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree, cause that man 'ish' is not a physical flesh man, it is none other than Satan himself pretending to be Christ. And nobody is flying anywhere.

[unlearner]

"How can this be, consider Christ said TIME would be shortened not the events that would take place? "

I have already explained this. Let me repeat.

Daniel's seventieth week is a seven year time in which God will fulfill the prophecies that lead to the coming of the kingdom of God. It appears to coincide with a seven year treaty ratified by a European leader who the Bible identifies as the Antichrist.

The first half of this seven years will begin with a relatively peaceful time and the rise of many false Christs. But it will rapidly descend into war, famine, disease and "natural" disasters. Persecution against believers will begin to grow.

In the very middle of this seven year time, Antichrist will enter into the temple of God, set up an idol, and proclaim himself God. This will be the starting point of the great tribulation. Many believers will be imprisoned and killed. Many professing believers will abandon their "faith". This will continue until signs in the sky appear.

Immediately after these signs, the Lord will return, cutting short the time of trouble for believers. For those who have rejected the truth and have chosen to follow and worship the Antichrist things will get worse, because God's wrath will begin to be poured out.

This will end with Antichrist being destroyed, Christ returning physically to the Earth, and the establishing of His eternal kingdom (beginning with the thousand year reign). This event will be the completion of the seventieth week.

Antichrist is certainly a man. This is the plain teaching of scripture, and any other interpretation is a serious error. There are, in fact, many Antichrists who are also men rather than spiritual beings (1 John 2:18-19; 4:1-6). In Revelation, Antichrist is symbolized by one of the heads of two similar seven-headed beasts. One beast appeared to die and come back to life. It clearly states that these heads represent seven specific rulers. (See Revelation 13:1-15; 17:3-12.) He is called the "prince that shall come" who belongs to the Roman people (who destroyed Jerusalem) in Daniel 9:26-27. (Satan did not descend from European heritage as that would make him human.) Scripture specifically calls Antichrist a "man" in Second Thessalonians 2:3.

"What about that WOE to them that teach the 'fly' away doctrine, it plainly says this is a prophesy. And nobody is flying anywhere."

Are you actually denying that believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air? If that is what you are saying, you are going to get yourself in serious trouble with the Lord. Your reference in Ezekiel (which I have already addressed) does not have any bearing at all on the teaching that the elect will be gathered and meet Christ in the air. This teaching is a "mystery" which had not even been revealed in the Old Testament (i.e. the definition of "mystery"). (See 1 Corinthians 15:51, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, and Mark 13:27.)

We can certainly agree to disagree, but I go away sad to discover that your doctrine is much further from scripture than I would have guessed at the beginning of our conversation. I thought you held a traditional view of Christ's return at the end of the great tribulation (which is true for the most part). Now I am under the impression you do not even believe in the promise of His coming for believers as described in First Thessalonians 4 and 5. This is the blessed hope of believers that we will be saved from the coming wrath of God.

[Just mythoughts]

"Now I am under the impression you do not even believe in the promise of His coming for believers as described in First Thessalonians 4 and 5. This is the blessed hope of believers that we will be saved from the coming wrath of God."

No. Paul makes it clear in IIThessalonians 2 whole chapter that nobody is going anywhere. (I claify those who die their souls do in fact return to the Creator, that is why it says the 'dead' rise first).

The 'falling away' are those who are deceived that the first supernatural being deposited upon this earth is Christ.

They are seduced by the devil just as Eve was. You yourself have stated the anti-christ is a physical flesh man so how are you going to know that the first supernatural being is not Christ.

Christ said the HE became the Temple, now did HE mean that or not? Now if you believe Christ, then how can you expect a building to be built and something or somebody cause that building to be an abomination of desolation. Now since Christ said HE became the 'Temple' then what activity would cause Christ/Christians to be affected by what is commonly referred to as the abomination of desolation?

[unlearner]

"You yourself have stated the anti-christ is a physical flesh man so how are you going to know that the first supernatural being is not Christ."

Christ answered this very directly in Matthew 24:21-31. People will be claiming Christ is already on the earth during the great tribulation. And many false Christs will arise. Jesus coming will not be secret but glorious. He will appear in the clouds of heaven and every eye will see Him. There is no way for the elect to be misled by the false Christs who come secretly because we know how He will return - in the clouds of heaven. That is also where we will meet Him when He returns (1 Thessalonians 3:17).

"Christ said the HE became the Temple, now did HE mean that or not?"

Christ body (the church) is now the spiritual temple (1 Corinthians 3:16-17). There is an earthly spiritual temple, and will be an earthly physical temple (which must be rebuilt) as well. There is also a heavenly temple.

It was in the context of discussing the physical temple that Jesus explained the events of Matthew 24. He foretold the destruction of the physical temple which occurred around 70 A.D. He also said that the abomination of desolation would occur in the "holy place" - part of the physical temple.

We also know this temple is a physical building on earth by how it is described in Revelation. It has physical measurements. It has a physical address. It will be physically surrounded by occupying military forces (beginning at the abomination of desolation). See Revelation 11:1-2.

There is nothing in Second Thessalonians that indicates the temple reference is to a spiritual temple. This is reading into the passage rather than allowing it to speak for itself.

"Paul makes it clear in IIThessalonians 2 whole chapter that nobody is going anywhere."

He has already said that believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Paul does not need to repeat this point over and over. Jesus also taught this plainly as I have already referenced. Further, 2 Thessalonians 2:1 says believers will be gathered to Him when He returns. So we certainly will be going somewhere; we will be going to Him. The passage you cited disproves the very point you are trying to make.

[Just mythoughts]

Christ answered this very directly in Matthew 24:21-31. People will be claiming Christ is already on the earth during the great tribulation. And many false Christs will arise. Jesus coming will not be secret but glorious. He will appear in the clouds of heaven and every eye will see Him. There is no way for the elect to be misled by the false Christs who come secretly because we know how He will return - in the clouds of heaven. That is also where we will meet Him when He returns (1 Thessalonians 3:17).

This is exactly how Satan will return promising to fly out. You see what is not within your design is what we are told in ICorinthians 15:50, Now this I say, brethern, that flesh and blood cannot INHERIT the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed,

52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So long as we are in the flesh body ALL of us Christ has not returned. Remember in the OLD testament when it was believed that to see God one would die. Remember only those of the Levitical priesthood could go into the Holy of Holies, well the same applies when the REAL Christ returns.



"Christ said the HE became the Temple, now did HE mean that or not?"

"Christ body (the church) is now the spiritual temple (1 Corinthians 3:16-17). There is an earthly spiritual temple, and will be an earthly physical temple (which must be rebuilt) as well. There is also a heavenly temple."

So you think Christians are going to rebuild the physical Temple on this earth? Just when do you think Christians will be given access to that piece of real estate to rebuild that Temple.

"It was in the context of discussing the physical temple that Jesus explained the events of Matthew 24. He foretold the destruction of the physical temple which occurred around 70 A.D. He also said that the abomination of desolation would occur in the "holy place" - part of the physical temple."

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? (WHAT THINGS?) verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here ONE stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Now if you note the disciples were shewing Him the buildings (plural) of the temple. Yet to this day there are still stones upon stones of that temple still standing even after 70 A.D.

Now the first warning that Christ gives as a sign of His coming is DECEPTION, not flying away and nothing in Matthew 24, or Mark 13 or Lukes 21 speaks of anybody being lifted out of here by Christ. It does however speak of those who are taken out of the 'field' and they are not taken by Christ. They are like 5 of those ten virgins who have not the 'oil' (truth) and are seduced by the pretend christ.

verse 13 says that But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Christ did not say I'm saving anybody early.

Now IF we Christians are the Temple then we Christians would be the builders of "God's Holy Temple" and so how could the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not be allowed in by Christians. So obviously 'if' Christians are where the abomination of desolation stands then they are following another christ, that first supernatural being that is allowed to play the part of Christ promising "PEACE" "PEACE" "PEACE", and then sudden destruction comes.

Christ is returning with a double edge sword and it cuts both ways, that sword is none other than the WORD. Jeremiah 6 describes what the scene will be. Note verse 14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of MY People slightly, saying, 'Peace, peace;' when ther is not peace.

15 Were thay ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush:

therefore they shall FALL among them that fall: AT THAT "TIME" I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.

17 Also Isetwatchmen over you, saying, 'Hearken to the sound of the trumpet.' But they said, 'We will not harken.'

19. Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this People, even the fruit of their thoughts, because the have not hearkened unto MY words, nor to My law, but rejected it.

21 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will lay stumblingblocks before this people, and the fathers and the sons thogether shall fall upon them; the neighbour and his friend shall perish.

26 O daughter of My people, gird thee with sackcloth, and wallow thyself in ashes: make thee mourning, as for an only son, most bitter lamentation: FOR THE SPOILER SHALL SUDDENLY COME UPON US.

The spoiler, who is it that spoils? Ought to give a huge HINT.


We also know this temple is a physical building on earth by how it is described in Revelation. It has physical measurements. It has a physical address. It will be physically surrounded by occupying military forces (beginning at the abomination of desolation). See Revelation 11:1-2.

There is nothing in Second Thessalonians that indicates the temple reference is to a spiritual temple. This is reading into the passage rather than allowing it to speak for itself.

"Paul makes it clear in IIThessalonians 2 whole chapter that nobody is going anywhere."

He has already said that believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Paul does not need to repeat this point over and over. Jesus also taught this plainly as I have already referenced. Further, 2 Thessalonians 2:1 says believers will be gathered to Him when He returns. So we certainly will be going somewhere; we will be going to Him. The passage you cited disproves the very point you are trying to make.

Well ok yes some will be going somewhere but it won't be where they think they are going. I think it is called 'strong delusions' you know Paul talks about those who want to believe a lie so God himself will send them strong delusions....

[SunkenCiv]

Ping!