For shame...
Posted on 02/13/2005 5:28:59 PM PST by Eurotwit
As a hopelessly patriotic sort of person, I have a fantasy of one day being on holiday in the south of France and looking up from, say, a biography of Nelson, to see an aircraft carrier appear on the horizon. Only instead of it being an American one, it will be British. No doubt the captain will come ashore in a smart launch and, if I were to be lucky, he might invite me aboard for a sundowner. All would be well in the world, and I would sleep soundly, dreaming of past glories at the Nile and Trafalgar.
I am not the only one with this fantasy. Geoff Hoon says he has now taken personal charge of the Government's pet defence programme - to build two super-carriers for the Royal Navy. These will be the largest warships ever built in Britain, with four acres of flight deck apiece. In fact, they are so big that no single yard can build them and they will be constructed in bits, by a consortium of companies, before being put together by a "physical integrator", otherwise known as Kellogg, Brown & Root, a subsidiary of US vice- president Dick Cheney's alma mater, Halliburton. The Navy is salivating at the prospect of having some smart new toys to play with. The current military vogue is "expeditionary warfare", and Vice-Admiral Charles Style, commander UK maritime forces, says: "I absolutely believe this is a very relevant and important capability." Even the Department of International Development, eager to carpet-bomb Africa with aid, or, more usefully, help the victims of natural disasters, wants the carriers. So, how come, six years after they were first proposed, they have not yet been ordered?
Here is the rub. Despite all the brouhaha over the surprisingly fierce negotiating style of Mr Hoon, these carriers have got no further than the drawing board. They have, however, been provisionally named HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales. Something about those names, chosen by an administration that axed the Royal Yacht, worries me. Are they just a bit too unreal, a bit too good to be true? The last vessel to be named Prince of Wales, also the pride of the fleet, sank in unfortunate circumstances in 1941, after Churchill rashly sent it to defend Singapore without enough escorts.
Sadly, there is not much prospect of the super-carriers having enough escorts either. Another handful of frigates and destroyers have been cut, so the Royal Navy now has just 28 afloat, half the number it had at the time of the Falklands. Assuming a typical carrier battle group has at least six escorts, the Navy will be stripped bare to provide the minimum support, once these ships are supposedly at sea from 2012 onwards.
All this points to the really serious question: can we afford them? The initial cost estimate, now six years old, was that the carriers would cost £3 billion, plus their air complements. In theory, we should be able to find the money. After all, Britain is the world's fourth largest economy and a global trading nation. The trouble is that, over the past decade, the defence budget has been halved in real terms by both the Conservatives and Labour, to just 2.4 per cent of GDP. Every bill that comes in from Iraq is quibbled by the Treasury and the MoD has been reduced in effect to cannibalising future capability in order to fund Tony Blair's wars. Furthermore, as far as I can see, such are the burdens on the defence budget, the MoD has resorted to some pretty novel accounting. It treats some items as "near cash", an oxymoronic concept. It also records its hardware as £27 billion of capital assets. All those weapons, so expensive to maintain, depreciate rapidly and so are an odd kind of capital.
But there is really only one very significant thing you need to know about the Ministry of Defence's budget. It is to be found in note 21 to the accounts of a quango called the Defence Procurement Agency and it says future commitments "contracted but not provided for: £14.4 billion". That is the current cost of newly ordered weapon systems, which have yet to be paid for. But the Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales have not even been ordered yet, nor have their 70 joint combat fighters. The MoD protests otherwise, but that number looks to me like the black hole in the defence budget, blown by, inter alia, the Eurofighter. No wonder those doughty Scottish regiments are being merged or axed.
The "black hole" is also the ultimate financial consequence of the dualarchy which runs our country. On one side, there is Tony Blair, strutting around the world with a sword in one hand and a handkerchief in the other, sending the Armed Forces into battle. On the other side, there is Gordon Brown, with a fundamentally different idea of Britain as a soft power, a welfare state, whose principal foreign policy ought to be a "Marshall Plan" for the Third World. Mr Brown evidently has no time for the Armed Forces. Gerald Howarth, a Conservative defence spokesman, recently asked in a parliamentary question what defence establishments Mr Brown had visited. And the reply? Too expensive to find out. If any readers have ever seen Mr Brown at a defence establishment, perhaps they might write in to The Daily Telegraph to help solve the mystery.
The military are caught in the middle of this two-personality state - forced to deploy in Iraq and elsewhere, but without the proper support of the Treasury. So here is a pre-election challenge to Mr Blair and to Mr Brown, assuming they are speaking to each other. When will you order these carriers, and where, exactly, is the money to come from? Unless they can give satisfactory answers, my approach to the carrier question will be not to believe the Government, until I see the vessels bobbing on the horizon.
Actually, what says it all is that we call it the Falklands today rather than the Malvinas. The Brits won the war, last time I checked.
The key context is the two sentences just before where you quote. No other fixed wing jet in the world could have done this: Soon after the British landing at San Carlos, Royal Engineers built an 850-foot matting strip. This simple strip provided the Harriers with a base that allowed them to increase their endurance over the battle area significantly.
The Brits took on a numerically superior air force with fighters that were supposedly inferior to the Etendards and Mirages and won the day without a single loss in air-to-air combat. Now that's cojones.
You say a lot, but there is simply no factual information to back up your statements. A thesis from the Air Force War college that deals mostly with air field requirements for expeditionary forces does not make the Harrier an air to air killing machine. The fact that the Brits didn't lose a Harrier in the Falklands in air to air combat against Skyhawks and Super E's says the UK Harrier guys were good or the Skyhawk pilots sucked.
Not as bad as the USS America. From what I have read, in order to save a few bucks in the short term, not only did they make her conventionally powereed instead of a nule, they made her with lower grade steel. When she was decomissioned, she was IMMEDIATTELY stricken and classified as un-rebuildable.
On a happier note, I got my first traps on the America in a T-2C Buckeye. That ship was so big it looked like you were landing on the moon. A lot of flying left to do after the wheels got over steel.
Thanks..for the references. :^)
Err,The French are building a conventionally powered cousin to the Charles DeGaulle(guess they learnt their lessons).It will be around 40,000 tonnes in displacement & will be ready by the time the 2 Brit carriers hit the oceans. & IIRC,both Britain & France have agreed on technology cooperation to reduce cost & time!!!
While we can argue about the capabilities of the SeaHarrier,the fact is that it can be considered the shield of the RN,given the limited capability of their SeaDart missiles,which are being taken out of service.The RN are planning to retire their SeaHarriers & replace them with a Jointforce Harrier,designated the Harrier GR-9,which is primarily meant for the strike role.This is ,well an idiotic move,given that their carriers will need to depend on the USN for airdefence for atleast 4 years(till their Type-45 class ships come online).The ironic thing then will be that the best SeaHarriers flying will be the Indian Navy's jets which are getting an Israeli upgrade with new radars & the Derby BVR AAM.How much more crazy can the world be!!
I need to post some articles for your perusal:
http://www.papadoc.net/real_life_tm.htm#Redshift%20posted%20this%20excellent%20story%20about%20Harriers%20and%20F-15's%20Tangling...
Redshift posted this excellent story about Harriers and F-15's Tangling...
OK OK OK I admit my memory was faulty about the outcome of the Sea Harrier v.
F15 dissimilar A2A (it was only once, and 7-1 to the Harrier). I plead senility,
the fact that I last read the book about 3 years ago, and obviously an overblown
sense of patriotism. Here is the real scoop from Commander Ward's book "Sea
Harrier over the Falklands". This would have been about 1979 I guess, very early
into the commissioning of the Sea Harrier FRS1.
[any gross typos are due to my scanner / OCR]
##############################################
Myself, Morts and a legendary character called Dave Braithwaite, flew our shiny
new jets to the Aggressor base to do battle. There we were warmly welcomed by
the Aggressors and three days of intensive fighter combat training began. USAF
Aggressor Squadrons consist of specially selected USAF fighter pilots and were
formed specifically to give the best possible fighter combat training to USAF
squadrons throughout the world, and to NATO squadrons in Europe. They are highly
regarded for their professionalism and expertise. They avow no bullshit in their
post-flight debriefs and their simple aim is to improve the fighting capability
of the squadrons that they work with. On the first day, the two teams briefed
each other about their own aircraft characteristics (the Aggressors flew the
F5E) and then got airborne for 1-v-1 fighter combat. The F5E is even smaller
than the SHAR, turns much better and can accelerate to supersonic speed
extremely quickly in a nose low situation. Its armament is the same as that of
the SHAR. Sidewinder missiles and guns. The results of the first three 1-v-1
combat sessions were: I had four kills and none against; Morts had three kills
and one against; Dave scored two against two. The Aggressor pilots were
astonished. Later that day, One of their staff pilots approached Mortimer. Jesus
Christ. Morts! Who are you guys? What's going on? Have you been sent here to
evaluate us?'
Morts assured him that that was not the case. The Aggressors were intrigued
that a fresh-from-formation squadron team could do so well against them. and so
we agreed to try some special combat evaluation sorties with them to give them a
better chance of understanding the SHAR. 'What I suggest we do,. I briefed. 'is
set up each combat with your F5s in a position of clear advantage over us. That
is to say you can take up the "perch'. at about 2000 feet above us, about 800
yards on the beam and 2000 yards back. We shall commence each combat when you
turn in On us. We'll be watching you and when you turn in we'll counter [turn]
hard in towards you. At this point you will be able to track us and attempt to
get an acquisition with your missiles. As you come into missile range. we shall
deny you a shot by hiding our jet exhaust from your missile. In the SHAR that is
relatively easy to do: we just drop about 30 degress of nozzle. This will pitch
Our nose up instantaneously about 20 degrees, diffuse the hot gases of our
exhausts and hide the exhaust from you by placing our wing between your missile
and the source of heat. You will still be able to track us with your nose and by
this time you should have a lot of overtake, that is. you will be closing in
rapidly towards guns range. Before you get to guns range we will commence a
high-G braking stop barrel roll which you won't be able to follow. This will
allow us to roll over you and decelerate to a position behind you where you will
be in our gunsights. That's the aim of the game, gentlemen; let's go and see if
it works, and see whether you can come up with an answer to our moves.' The
combats went as planned with about the same ratio of kills as on the first
sortie. Missile shots were denied to the F5s and as my own opponent closed in
towards guns range I pulled the joystick fully back in my midriff and used a
combination of aileron and then full rudder to corkscrew the jet into the
vertical. Breathing hard from the excitement, I relaxed the flight controls and
swung the nozzles down and forward into the full braking stop position. Suddenly
the F5 was no longer pointing at me but was being sucked and pulled down below
me. Nozzles aft again and full rudder, aileron and elevator to pass through the
inverted and then roll down behind the F5. The fight was over. Either with
missile or gun, the Freedom Fighter was finished. On day two of the detachment I
flew against the Aggressor Boss and was beaten in one of the four combats that
took place. The fight had progressed until both jets were near to base height,
and slow. It was almost stalemate and in that situation I should have walked it.
But one of the F5's specialities is being moderately capable in the slow-speed
regime, and although it can't fly as slow as the SHAR it can manoeuvre more
freely at a slightly higher speed. Our two jets were crossing over each other in
our attempts to point at the other aircraft and shoot (a manoeuvre known as
horizontal scissors) when I momentarily let my jet's nose drop below the
horizon. I had briefed my team that on no account must they let this happen
against the F5 or that fight would be lost. I was furious with myself as I had
wanted to return to Yeovilton with a clean sheet. Nevertheless, it was a highly
successful first look at dissimilar combat, with the team kill ratios against
one of the best outfits around being 12:I, 9:3 and 6:6. making an aggregate kill
rate of 27 to 10 in the SHAR's favour. All the lads on the IFTU were delighted
and I submitted a short paper to the MOD to report the detail of the Aggressor
visit. It was an honest report. and it complimented the Aggressors on their
professionalism and integrity But it pulled no punches on the score-line, or the
capabilities of the Sea Jet. As a matter of internal MOD courtesy , a copy of
the report was passed to the appropriate RAF Harrier desk and from there it was
passed on up the line to the hierarchy. It was apparent that the courtesy was
neither welcomed nor honoured at higher level because within days of the initial
report being submitted, an Air Vice-Marshal stormed into the Aggressor Squadron
Commander's office at Alconbury, threw a copy of my report down on the table,
and asked, .Have you seen this. Colonel?' Obviously. the Crabs didn't relish the
idea of the SHAR being a successful fighter and were presumably trying to
question the validity of the report This rather underhand intrusion caused
unnecessary embarrassment all round and was a most unwelcome gesture. The Boss
of the Aggressors was rather upset by the incident. but his staff did get in
touch with me by phone to say that the report was a good one, and valid. A few
days later, the telephone on my desk at Yeovilton rang 'Good morning, Sir. This
is the F15 Eagle Squadron at Bitburg in Germany Could I speak with Commander
Sharkey, please?' 'Certainly! Speaking!. 'Sir, I hear you had a good experience
against the Aggressor Squadron at Alconbury, recently. Is that correct?' 'Yes.
that's right.' 'Well, Sir, if you"re happy with the idea we'd be delighted to
come across to Somerset to do some combat with you. We'd bring over four F15s to
see how you get on against Our jet. We hear you did pretty good against the
Aggressors.' 'That would be splendid!' I replied. 'We would love to see you here
at Yeovilton and to fly with you. Just let us know when you expect to arrive and
we'll be at your pleasure for the duration.' Word had got around fast and the
elite of the USAF in Europe couldn't resist the chance to see how good the SHAR
was - and whether Alconbury was just a flash in the pan. True to their word, the
Bitburg boy, arrived at Yeovilton with four of their magnificent fighters for a
day's Air Combat Manoeuvring. It was agreed that the aircraft should operate in
pairs against each other , which brought fighter tactics really into play (as
opposed to just matching aircraft for aircraft, pilot for pilot. in a 1-v-1
fight). The visitors were fully equipped with their radar and were simulating
Sparrow AIM-7E missiles, Sidewinders and guns. The SHARS were without radar but
were fitted with their radar warning receivers and were simulating Sidewinders
and guns The two combat sessions were set up over North Devon and the Bristol
Channel, with the dissimilar pairs running in towards each other from a distance
of about 40 nautical miles. My team were given radar direction from ground radar
by a brilliant Direction Officer of many years' experience named Harry O'Grady
Having spent years flying the Phantom and using the Sparrow missile, which has
an excellent head-on firing capability, I knew how to deny the F15 a valid
Sparrow shot from head-on and had briefed my pilots accordingly. The tactic
worked well. There were no head-on claims from the F-l5s as they ran in and, as
the two aircraft types entered the same airspace, fully developed combat began.
Initially, the F-15s had the advantage. Their radars pinpointed the SHARs and
directed their pilots' eyes on to the smaller jets. The SHARs flew at about
12,000 feet, which was where we wanted to meet the opposition, and so the F-15s
came in from very high level (30.000 feet plus). rolling over and looping down
towards the stem of our Sea Jet formation This was when the SHAR was most
vulnerable. It was essential that visual contact was made. Morts came to the
rescue. 'High in the 6 o'clock, Boss! Break port and up! They are about 3 miles
and closing fast!' The aircraft shuddered in the hard turn with the nose rising
to meet the threat. 'Tallyho! On both! I'm flying through the right-hand man and
reversing on him. Your tail is clear.' The nose of the SeaJet passed through the
vertical` with my head strained round as far as it would go to keep tabs on the
F-15 which, feeling threatened. had engaged burners and had also pulled
vertically upwards and over the top (about 5000 feet above me) As the F-15 came
down the other side of the vertical manoeuvre he found me still pointing at him
all the way. Trying the same move twice was not a good idea` but that's what he
did. I predicted the move, sliced my nose early through the vertical and found
myself sitting astern the two white-hot plumes at the back of the US fighter.
'Fox Two away!' I called, simulating the release of the Sidewinder missile.
Morts fared just as well. The detailed post-flight debriefs showed a 7 to 1
valid kill claim by the SHARs. The Alconbury experience had been no flash in the
pan. The Sea Harrier had really arrived on the fighter combat scene.
Redshift.
Su27 FAQ: http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/redshift/su27faq.html
Also found at:
http://216.239.63.104/search?q=cache:sgvHdD4SoVcJ:strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/6-1606.asp+harrier+%22top+gun%22+kill+ratio&hl=en
RE:That link again 9/25/2003 3:24:31 AM
It would appear that not everyone has read the link I posted, here we can see the harriers can hide their heat plume from the enemy.
So far as evidence, we have these two combat situations, and then Kozmik's ( who started this post), stating in unequivical terms that the Harrier will beat the much vaunted F-15. I have not been provided with any evidence to the contrary, just many postulations that speed and altitude, with a misile are the major factors, please read into why The USN started Top Gun in the first place.
http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/forums.asp?s=1&c=1&t=14993
Another Combat Flying story, at play in Nevada
chrisg2/7/03 4:03:49 PMHero ModGuru Send private Message Well, Mac got over his grumps, seems he now likes this story, mainly because of a little coda at the end - never try and tell a fighter pilot he's not the best. Just as well I no longer have that ego, much, or you wouldn't get to read this one ;-) This was sort of a fun time in my career. Enough autonomy and experience to get into some very interesting projects, away from the strictures of my masters. Pity it never was taken up in my opinion. For those who have been following the whole saga this came after I planted a Harrier in Salisbury Plain - not of my doing, a Pegasus trying to eat a largish bird goes bang big time, to this I can testify. The desert haze makes it hard to see the bogie out there at my nine, manouvering in to my six, doesn't matter yet, I want him in close anyway. There he is. A glint from his canopy as he turns. Time to lead him astray. I turn right, casually, no hurry, actually presenting my tail to him. Except I'm in a Harrier, GR.3, and I know just how hard it is, especially in visibility like this, to discern which way a Harrier is really travelling. Right now there's a good chance he's getting disoriented, his eyes telling him one thing, his common sense another. He's close enough now, looking back over my left shoulder I push in full power and snap into a left turn, stroking the vectoring lever to bring in just enough VIFF to tighten the turn far beyond anything he will be able to follow. He reacts instantly, following my turn, but I'm inside now, grunting through the Gee, sights crawling steadily closer. Before I can lay it on him he flips up on his right wing, an outside roll that yanks him out of the kill zone. I ease off on the stick, hold 100% power and pursue as he pulls into a yo-yo. In any other aircraft I'd be overshooting, or forced to break away, but not in a Harrier. I pull into a tight rolling turn, VIFF again, and with my energy mostly intact stay behind him. For him that was a mistake, and one I'm about to take maximum advantage of. He's bled energy right through those two closely coupled manouveres, I haven't. Now I VIFF again, keeping abeam and pull across the flight axis. He counters with another wingover that I mirror and we are immediately in a rolling scissors, going downhill in a game of chicken that neither of us care to take too far. We don't have to, this is where I want him. The Harrier is far more responsive here, right in the middle of its flight envelope, than his heavy double-sonic jet can ever hope for. My nose cuts across the axis again and this time he's bled-out, nothing left to take him out of my sights. His burners are flaring and I can feel for him, sweating in the cockpit, willing his mount to greater effort. Too late. My pipper walks along his spine, centres on the cockpit and I squeeze the trigger..... .....and for the first time ever my gun camera records me achieving a kill on my good friend Mac, hanging out there helpless in his big F4E. The radio fills with a roar of laughter and a "knock-it-off" call as I pull up along side, my lips drawn back in the biggest grin my face is capable of under the mask. "Told you this bird would get you." "This time sonny, this time." True enough, but that's what this little one-on-one is all about. Show Mac how the unique vectoring in forward flight, VIFF, capability of the nimble little Harrier can be exploited to change the way we dogfight. He's just learned a lesson, it won't be so easy next time. I know he'll be coming in at me fullbore, looking to shoot and run, not get suckered into a turning fight he can't win. It's the early seventies, out over the Nevada desert north of Las Vegas. I'm here on a programme initiated by the US Marines to explore how effective their new Harriers might be at air-to-air combat. Not too shabby would be Mac's assessment right now. The RAF has had a small team looking into this for a few months back in the UK. We've learned a lot out over Salisbury Plain and in the sandbox above the Bristol Channel, time to see how it translates to the real world, going up against seasoned veterans like Mac, who's here between tours in Vietnam. In a few years time the games we are playing will evolve into the massive Red Flag exercises, but now its just a few different US aircraft types, a couple of Harriers and for fun the RAF has sent along four Buccaneers as well. Their pilots are revelling in being able to skim the desert as Blue force attack bombers that Mac and his team will be trying to defeat and I and my wingman will be protecting. We already know that's a bit of a joke, Buccaneers are as unique in their own way as the Harrier. Skimming the sand at a dozen feet, transonic, is what they were designed for. The US Phantom pilots have already discovered you can't shoot a Buccaneer in its element. If they try to match speed with them their big fighters judder and shake in the transonic regime, threatening to loosen their fillings. The speed at which a Buccaneer is as stable as a rock is a speed most aircraft are designed to pass through as quickly as possible. If the Phantoms do that they overshoot, if they use side passes they get maybe half a second to try to hit the well camouflaged Buccs down there in nap of the earth at 600 knots. Not going to happen, but hey, the Buccs are having fun, and we are learning more about the implications of VIFF and how to counter it. Maybe one day the Russians will have an airplane like this. Well, it's a good excuse, really we're just having a ball doing what we got into the flying game for in the first place. "How's your fuel?" I glance down at my gauges. The Harrier's achilles heel, the same as every British fighter since the Hurricane and maybe before. Even with the wing tanks my range is a pittance compared to the F4. "Coming up on bingo." "Ok, let's take it home." "Yeah, your buy, oh mighty warrior." I gloat. A chuckle over the radio: "Many as you like, see if you can fly that thing tomorrow with a sore head." I grin, Mac knows I'm immune to hangovers. We roll and turn, heading into Nellis as the sun drops toward the mountains. Tomorrow is the first day of wargames and a Reserve squadron has arrived to play for the first week. We are up early for briefing then out to the flightline. The air is full of noise and the ground shakes as the F4's leave. The Buccaneers follow a few minutes later and my wingman and I perform our crowd pleasing STOL take offs from a taxi ramp set aside for us and hustle to play our top cover role. The Phantoms, eight of them, have already disappeared, Mac leading. Various other exercises are going on, but his group is tasked with stopping the Buccaneers. Try to equal yesterday's score more like. It's kindergarten day so we are all in radio contact. By the end of the week it will be more serious, today the Reserves need to get oriented. As we head out to the range I'm listening to Mac have more than one discussion with his six charges. They're not in a good formation, flying too close together and sloppy with it. I glance out to my left, my wingman is nearly a mile away, combat spread, the days of tight formations are gone except at airshows, but these Reserves have yet to learn that. I'm catching glimpes of the Buccaneers down below, the air is still reasonably clear, but they are wraiths, darting acoss the terrain. Last night one pilot was telling us how he had to pull up to clear a cactus on the way back from his bombing practise. I believe him, a strange breed Buccaneer crews. Might as well join the army and drive a tank I'd teased him. That cost me a round of drinks. We are coming up on the "border" now, getting more alert, wondering what Mac has been planning. No one is using radar, we don't even have one, it's all eyeballs and my wingman gets the first sighting, calling it over on our 10 o'clock. I look and see four, warn my wingman, they've split forces, then a second later see the other four, out at two o'clock, pretty classic pincer, but eight on two is going to make it interesting. It was done that way to give the Reserves some flight time, no one, including themselves, expects them to be too effective today. I warn the Buccaneers we are engaging and decide to take the 10 o'clock group, looks like Mac is in there, the formation is spread, has altitude on us and looks better led. There's enough time to get a little height, but instead I decide to do the opposite, leading in a turning dive that forces the F4's to follow steeply if they want to intercept us. They do, we use Viff to pull around tight under them, still keeping well apart, and the two formations pass each other, us now reversing. One F4 has used his dive speed to pull a high Gee barrel roll, keeping him on the perch without bleeding too much energy, edging around to our rear. Morning Mac. Another has done a wing over and is looking as if he will threaten my wingman's tail, the remaining pair fly straight past before turning. Guess we just sorted out who the gunfighters are. I'm turning to go head to head on Mac, it looks as if we are at similar speeds, but I'm throttled to the firewall, he hasn't even gone burner yet. As we slash past each other cockpit to cockpit and both start to turn I show him something else the Harrier can do. I pull about 60 degrees of VIFF and am hauled forward in the straps, four gees of rapid deceleration with the Pegasus motor still spooled up. I exploit my suddenly reduced speed to turn even tighter, return the nozzles to full astern and am slammed back into my seat again as he overshoots and I'm right behind. We have not included missiles today, it's really just a get-to-know you exercise, except Mac and I already know each other thankyou. I'm betting he's glad I don't have a theoretical Sidewinder, for a second or so I have him on a plate before he tucks and rolls, I follow. ...and suddenly its all gone pear shaped.... Guard band is full of screams and curses, and Mac yelling 'KNOCK-IT-OFF!!!" The other group of four have failed to see us until the Phantoms in our furball pull some smoke and wake them up. Then they all pull over hard to engage and one loses visual on his lead. Over there two Phantoms that were much too close together have just bumped 'planes. I'm heading towards them immediately, looking for 'chutes, distantly aware of my wing reappearing over my shoulder, and of Mac and his wing sweeping past us in full burner, Mac on the radio calling a head count. To everyone's surprise the count comes up full, except one is answered by a panicky sounding REO, but as we arrive over the other formation, turning and slowing to get a look at what is going on, we can see the situation is serious. One Phantom is in a slow turn, looking ridiculous with its radome gone, the antenna sitting out in the breeze, the pilot just realising why he feels like he is sitting a lot further forward than he was before. The other.......Is in a spin, spiralling across the sky. Even as we catch sight of him we see him get it back, but not easily, using raw power to force the plane to behave. It turned out later he had not had his straps tight enough, the bump slapped his helmet against the plex and took him out for a few seconds. His plane feels bad but he levels off and takes stock. I leave my wing, who like me is from the Phantom World, to see what he can do for the guy with the informal nose job and formate on the other with Mac. There's a very large chunk of rudder and fin missing. This is going to be interesting. Several of the fighters that were designed in the fifties and came to service in the sixties were short of directional stability. The F-100 was the worst, it killed a lot of pilots before North American nearly doubled the amount of fin and cured the problem. The F4 has a lot of fin, and considerable rudder, it needs it, they work together to keep it running straight and to apply yaw. With what is missing this plane has a problem, no rudder to apply yaw and not enough keel. This sort of situation can have a plane tumbling out of control in an instant, sliding like a car on black ice before digging in a wing and going divergent on all axes - pilot speak for total loss of control. Mac is talking to ground, giving them an update. He's already sent all the undamaged Phantoms towards Nellis, nothing they can do to help, and my wing is escorting the new short wheelbase model in the same direction. I'm sitting above and to the right of the crippled bird, Mac is alongside on the left, a safe distance away, he and his REO looking over, as Mac now begins to talk the pilot through a few checks. The pilot is obviously stressed, his voice cracking as he replies, but he's flying the way he should be, as if he has a sleeping baby in his lap, everything gentle and careful. It's possible to turn an aircraft without using rudder, initiate a roll with the ailerons, the elevators then allow you to turn the nose, however the nose will tend to fall if you aren't able to apply a touch of up rudder. All controls are supposed to work in harmony, but by juggling the throttles, even on an aircraft like the Phantom whose twin engines are side by side, you can get a bit of pitch up, or ignore the nose drop until you have turned then pull it back up, so in theory this aircraft is still flyable. In practise it's balanced on the edge. Mac is advising the pilot to stay away from the rudder all together, even if what's left is still working, which looks unlikely, it may well jam and worsen the situation, right now its centred, leave it that way. I'm staying quiet, really I should head back, but I'm still good on fuel, and Mac may need some help. Over the next few minutes he gets the Phantom pointed in the direction of Nellis, and initiates a very gentle descent. Now the problems will be the pitch change when the gear is lowered, the changing aerodynamics of thicker air below and any winds. I know Mac has never experienced anything like this before, but he's talking as if its just a standard training approach, deft and sure, giving the guy plenty of time to understand why he wants him to make each input. Nellis comes over the horizon and I decide there is nothing more I can do, I sweep ahead and land vertically on the hardstand. The other damaged 'plane is already down, nothing too tricky, a number of Phantoms have lost radomes over the years and landed safely, which my wing has used to reassure the Reserve pilot. Mac's charge is a different story, people can get killed trying this, but listening in I hear Mac offer the eject option and the crew say no, they'll bring it in. I stand up in my cockpit shielding my eyes to the bright sun and watch them arrive. I can imagine what it's like up there, sweaty and tense, the REO would already have his hands on the eject lanyard, a passenger who can have no affect on the next few seconds. The pilot holding the bird tight, willing her to behave, wondering just how fast he can ignite his bang seat if he loses it. The gear is down without drama, the slab doors possibly helping a little, they come over threshold. At the last instant it looks as if it is all about to come apart, one wing lifts, the nose seems to drift right, but in the same instant the wheels slam into the concrete, hard even for a Phantom landing but nothing the rugged Carrier-bred oleos cannot cope with. They roll down the runway, nose lowering and its all over. Mac flys by and pulls into a steep climb, unable to resist a triple roll of relief before re-joining and landing. I've rarely seen two people exit an aircraft so fast. As soon as they are on the hardstand and the ladders are in they are down, looking pale and shakey, and more so when they walk back and see the damage. From in close its even nastier, the rudder basically gone, rivets popped all over. A bit more than a bump. I wandered over to have a look at the other casualty. The entire fibreglass radome was gone, but that wasn't what had done the damage. The radar was shoved back several inches into the airframe, the antenna only losely attached, I doubted that was going to be recoverable. Phantoms, tough critters. Obviously there was an enquiry, it led to proper rules on combat separation that the USAF had not had up to that time. It also began the formalising of proper Rules of Engagement and pre-games checks that were to be such a successful part of Red Flag as it evolved. Mac and I had time to play some more whilst all that was being sorted out. The final score was six to four in his favour, although I could of claimed five/five, I had him before this in-flight happened...... We'd learned a lot, the Marines were happy, the RAF less so. The Harrier had always had as many enemies as friends in Whitehall for some reason. To date, and we are talking thirty years, the RAF has still not fielded a fighter version of the Harrier, keeping it for ground attack and recon. The Royal Navy has. The Sea Harrier that was triumphant in the Falklands. But even there none of the kills against the Argentinian Air Force involved VIFF. Good as the Sea Harrier is, especially its high availability in awful conditions, it was the Sidewinder AIM 9L that made the difference, that and very well trained and led pilots. That they did not exploit the unique aspects of their aircraft always seemed odd to me. Even without VIFF the Harrier is highly manouverable, as they proved, with it it is unbeatable in a turning fight. Mac never won any of those with me, he found other ways.. V/STOL aircraft using vectored thrust the way the Harrier does will probably disappear. The F-35 has a combination of a vectored rear exhaust and a fan to permit it to land vertically. There are good reasons for that, the Harrier exhaust can be very hard on runway surfaces. Higher thrust, to lift a bigger, faster aircraft, would require specialised landing surfaces, which would remove much of the aircrafts' versatility. But that combination does not have the in-flight uses that the Harrier system does, the fan is purely for landings and assisted V/STOL take off and only really intended for the Navy/Marine version in any event. In flight vectoring of rear nozzles improves turning, but doesn't much help in rapid speed changes the way we learned to exploit the Harrier. It's a pity, the combination of the brilliant Sir Sydney Camm airframe and those four vectored nozzles make the Harrier a dogfighter supreme, and I'm one of the few who ever had the opportunity to truly appreciate that.... They were interesting times. No disrespect to the US reserve system, it keeps a cache of pilots around a lot longer than other countries manage But a lot of the guys I met were just not proficient on the complex aircraft they were being asked to fly as weekend warriors. Anyway, enjoy, I think I should take it back to Biafra and one of my tales next, Mac is too hard to get publishing approval from....:-) Cheers
"You say a lot, but there is simply no factual information to back up your statements. "
***As difficult as it is to find 20 year old articles, I have posted supporting information. You have not posted anything to refute it other than your own experience, which I will show below is not valid in this circumstance. You appear to have been flying Tomcats onto carriers in the 1990's, judging from your posting history. By that time, the Harriers had already made their impact on air-to-air engagements and they had been ordered to turn off their Viffing capability in order to mimic Soviet subsonic attack aircraft capabilities in these exercises. The article below is evidence for that contention.
If you still have some contacts into your old squadron buddies, I would love to hear you issue a dare to them: Tell them to contact the Harrier pilots and allow them to turn on their radars and use their VIFFing capability against your buddies in the next round of Red Flag exercises. It would be a good simulation of going against someone with stolen JSF-type of technology. Then let us know what the kill ratios are after that engagement. I've heard of one Harrier that recorded 9 "kills" just by finding a place in the woods and setting down, whenever he saw an Eagle nearby, he would rise up vertically, point his missile at the guy, record the kill, then go back down.
http://www.navynews.co.uk/articles/2003/0311/0003111002.asp
Harriers battle over deserts of Nevada 10.11.03 12:45
Hundreds of miles from the sea in the United States, Royal Navy Sea Harriers battled with opponents in one of the most exacting tests of air power.
A short hop from the bright lights of Las Vegas, over the deserts of Nevada, pilots and crew of 800 Naval Air Squadron made their debut against the pride of military fliers from four nations.
For 12 days in August some 100 jet aircraft tangled in the skies over Nellis Air Base, Nevada.
Red Flag is the largest air exercise, but this year’s ‘battle’ was the first time the Sea Harriers have taken part, joining colleagues from the Israeli and German air forces and American F-16s from the ‘Aggressor Squadron’.
Six of the British single-seat fighters headed off to the western USA accompanied by their ground crew and staff.
The passage to the States was an adventure in itself. It took stopovers in the Azores and Maine in New England, as well as regular refuelling from RAF VC10s, to get the Harriers to Nevada, while supporting crew and equipment were shipped out in another VC10 and C-130 Hercules aircraft.
The Royal Naval team soon found the odds were stacked against the Harriers – 800 NAS was picked to play the role of former Eastern Bloc attackers during Red Flag.
The attackers were outnumbered four to one throughout the exercise – and the Sea Harrier was denied full use of its radar and AMRAAM air-to-air missiles.
Pilots were even told to mimic tactics of their former foes, rather than make use of the Sea Harrier’s legendary manoeuvrability.
Despite these handicaps – and debilitating temperatures which touched 40C at times – 800 NAS has returned from the States with its reputation held high and important lessons learned.
Pilot Lt Craig Compain said the squadron had managed to adjust to new tactics and doctrine thousands of miles from its Yeovilton home remarkably quickly.
The ground crew’s unstinting efforts ensured a punishing flight rate, with two sorties each day by four Harriers on each occasion, was maintained throughout the exercise.
Lt Compain added: “It’s a true testament to the maintenance crews that over the entire exercise, not one sortie was lost to an aircraft not being serviceable.”
Being just outside the gambling capital of the United States, the aircrew couldn’t resist the odd sortie from the Nellis air base into Las Vegas.
For staff officer Lt Ian Peattie, a visit to Las Vegas was a must – to tie the knot to fiancée Anita.
And being Las Vegas, Elvis – or rather a Cliff Richard lookalike dressed as the King – had to be there for the nuptials, as well as the core of 800 NAS.
Friends unable to attend in person could tune in to the ceremony over the Internet, as the ceremony was broadcast live on the web.
“It was a truly unique wedding, witnessed by the squadron officers in mess dress, senior rates dressed as Elvis and the staff officers dressed as cowboys,” said Lt Compain.
“We were all entertained by an Elvis impersonator, who brought the house down with his rendition of Viva Las Vegas.”
It has been a busy year for 800 NAS, with Exercise Red Flag following hot on the heels of Exercise Flying Fish in the Far East.
Five out of six members of the 120-strong squadron shipped out to Las Vegas within days of arriving back in the UK from the ten-day Far Eastern exercise.
And for 45 of the squadron, the tempo has not dropped off, as three Sea Harriers remained behind in the United States to take part in another series of exercises.
After a brief break back in the UK, crew returned to the USA to join their aircraft for High Rider, at China Lake Air Base, to test their bombing and weaponry skills.
Leave us not be condescending to our eastern cousins. The Brits have taught us a lot about carriers, including the canted flight deck so that landings and takeoffs can occur simultaneously. Also, don't forget the "Meatball" landing system (invented by the Brits) sure cuts down on insurance premiums for pilots.
ROTFLMAO! Where do you get this stuff? That is pretty funny.
By that time, the Harriers had already made their impact on air-to-air engagements and they had been ordered to turn off their Viffing capability in order to mimic Soviet subsonic attack aircraft capabilities in these exercises.
Limitations imposed for one exercise don't mean that the Harrier fleet is precluded from using those capabilities all the time. They were asked to simulate a non forward quarter threat for a Red Flag. If you fly the red side you simulate a red threat.
Tell them to contact the Harrier pilots and allow them to turn on their radars and use their VIFFing capability against your buddies in the next round of Red Flag exercises. It would be a good simulation of going against someone with stolen JSF-type of technology
Vertical Nozzle in Forward Flight will not be a capability of the JSF. If it is really the end-all-be-all capability of the Harrier I wonder why it is being done away with? I wonder why the Lockeed JSF version without multiple nozzles was chosen?
I've heard of one Harrier that recorded 9 "kills" just by finding a place in the woods and setting down, whenever he saw an Eagle nearby, he would rise up vertically, point his missile at the guy, record the kill, then go back down.
Three reasons this story isn't true. One is that you can't hang 9 AIM-9s on a Harrier. The second is an AOA limitation on the AIM-9, the last is water. You're probably wondering what I'm talking about. Answer this question from your "source", How many seconds of water does a Harrier hold and why is that important?
The Joint Strike Fighter WILL HAVE vectored exhaust, which derives from the almost legendary successes of Vectoring In Forward Flight (VIFFing) on the HARRIER. It does NOT stand for "Vertical Nozzle in Forward Flight", as you suggest. And, since this capability as well as its origin is commonly known in the industry, this leads me to believe that you do not know what you are talking about, thereby suggesting that you are masquerading as a former Tomcat pilot. That's why I'm copying Jim Robinson.
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/jsf/
Lockheed Martin: conventional design, resembling a single-engined version of the F-22 Raptor. The STOVL version featured a lift fan behind the cockpit, driven by a shaft off the main engine, plus a VECTORED EXHAUST and two exhaust ducts, extending from each side of the engine to exit in the bottom of the wings.
"thrust vectoring" "Joint Strike Fighter" JSF --- 809 hits on Google, first hit.
Where do you get this stuff? That is pretty funny.
***I guess the guy was a better fighter pilot than he was a writer.
By that time, the Harriers had already made their impact on air-to-air engagements and they had been ordered to turn off their Viffing capability in order to mimic Soviet subsonic attack aircraft capabilities in these exercises.
> Limitations imposed for one exercise don't mean that the > Harrier fleet is precluded from using those capabilities > all the time. They were asked to simulate a non forward > quarter threat for a Red Flag. If you fly the red > side you simulate a red threat.
***This confirms what I suggested, that if you flew against Harriers in these exercises, they were limiting their VIFFING capabilities against you to simulate the Red threat.
Tell them to contact the Harrier pilots and allow them to turn on their radars and use their VIFFing capability against your buddies in the next round of Red Flag exercises. It would be a good simulation of going against someone with stolen JSF-type of technology
> Vertical Nozzle in Forward Flight will not be a >capability of the JSF. If it is really the end-all-be-all >capability of the Harrier I wonder why it is being done >away with? I wonder why the Lockeed JSF version without >multiple nozzles was chosen?
***I gather that means you won't be contacting your buddies with that challenge in mind?
I've heard of one Harrier that recorded 9 "kills" just by finding a place in the woods and setting down, whenever he saw an Eagle nearby, he would rise up vertically, point his missile at the guy, record the kill, then go back down.
>Three reasons this story isn't true. One is that you can't >hang 9 AIM-9s on a Harrier. The second is an AOA >limitation on the AIM-9, the last is water. You're >probably wondering what I'm talking about. Answer this >question from your "source", How many seconds of water >does a Harrier hold and why is that important?
***This shows that you are not familiar with the FOB capabilities of the Harrier, which in this case enabled it to take off, land, rearm, refuel and take off again vertically within a few short minutes. The average sortie time in Gulf WarI was 23 minutes.
The only vectoring on the STOVL F-35 is the articulation of the aft nozzle. This also requires the opening of numerous panels on the aft section of the aircraft which could not be done in high speed flight. The doors would rip off.
ROTFLMAO! That is rich.
One more question. How are you supposed to VIFF when the JSF control system doesn't include a nozzle control lever for the pilot?
So then, which is it? Is there thrust vectoring on the JSF or not? If so, why did you say that there was none? Thrust vectoring originated on the Harrier, and is being utilized in the next generation of fighters because of its well-known capability to enhance maneuverability. That happened as a result of the Harrier whipping superior airplanes on dogfights. Since you seem to be unaware of this, your credibility is in question.
One more question. How are you supposed to VIFF when the JSF control system doesn't include a nozzle control lever for the pilot?
***I guess the VIFF lever is in the same place as the "Vertical Nozzle in Forward Flight" lever that you claim exists on the Harrier, which is in the same place as the F14 variable wing geometry lever as well as the X31 leading edge angle adjustment lever (so the forward swept wings don't rip off). Those levers only get shown to the PWKWTAD (Pilots Who Know What They Are Doing), rather than the flunkies.
You sure show a nasty combination of -ances, ignorance and arrogance.
(/Sarcasm off. Oh, wait, that's /Sarcasm still on. Oh, wait, let me check that PWKWTAD manual...)
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