Poland marks 65 years since Stalin's deportation of Poles to Siberia

The Jamaica Observer ^ | Friday, February 11, 2005

[dervish]

give some source

Yehuda Nir, Lost Childhood, a personal memoir.

[dervish]

If I can make it out clearly you belive that antisemitism in the prewar times led the Nazi Germany do what they have done?

Yes more or less. There was a pervasive climate of anti-Semitism in most of Europe which set the stage for the killing. Poland was not exempt. Grzegorz 246 was kind enough to link you to a thread in which I document some instances in Poland of anti-Semitic laws.

I have made it clear that I am not singling out only Poland for this climate. Is it your position that

a) Europe was not anti-Semitic prior to the war?

b) Europe was, but Poland was not?

c) European anti-Semitism played no role. It was just the Germans' fault regardless of any pre-existing anti-Semitism in Europe?

[twinself]

You'll do what you want. I don't think I've got to tell you. The conclusion I've been trying to draw is based on demography rather than on political beliefs.

[twinself]

"On May 1945, 12 of the returning Jews, among them Szymon Garbarz, age 25 and his brother Abram Garbarz, age 21, were murdered by A.K. Armija Krajowa Polish fascist partisans."

As you well know any generalizations carry the danger of unfair judgements. My grandfather was AK soldier, according to your sources "Polish fascist partisan", who happened to save Jewish twins during the war and helped to pass the V1 rocket to the Allies. First of all, I refuse to accept such lying statement and someone should get a decent slap in the mouth that s*** on behalf of Poles and Polish Jews who loved Poland and fought for Polish independence in AK. Who were Szymon Garbarz, age 25 and his brother Abram Garbarz, age 21? Do we know? Were they innocent and helpless? And maybe they helped Red Army in their invasion over Poland? We don't know, but perhaps they deserved it well and thanks God AK executed them. I tend to believe the latter as AK NEVER executed innocent people. Only collaborants.

[twinself]

"I am currently reading "Fighting Back - A memoir of Jewish Resistance in World War II" by Harold Werner. (ISBN 0-231-07882-X). Page 134 -
"The Army Krajowa also operated in our general area, but at considerable distance away from us. They were hostile to the Jewish partisans and to Jews in general..."."

As far as hostility is concerned - I hope you'll provide here the details of executions performed by Jewish heroes over Polish village people described in Werner's book, too...

[twinself]

BTW To tell the truth there was no such organization as "Armija Krajowa", term that you're constantly using/misusing. It is probably distorted Russian version of famous Polish organization called "Armia Krajowa", right? Probably you should redo your googling exercise now.

[chukcha]

As far as hostility is concerned - I hope you'll provide here the details of executions performed by Jewish heroes over Polish village people described in Werner's book, too...

According to the book, all executions of local villagers - I am not sure if they were ethnic Poles or Ukrainians - were done in retaliation for villagers' cooperation with Germans or for their participation in hunting down and killing Jews.

I did not see any reference to Jews killing villagers' children or women.

If you disagree, please post with page numbers.

As the matter of fact, the book mentions very many non-Jews who helped Jews, some who Werner describes as Polish patriots. The Jewish partisan group later also became part of Armija Ludowa.

Werner is very critical of Armija Krajowa operating in the area. He claimed that many survivors of Sobibor camp uprising, who managed to get to the forest, were killed by Armija Krajowa. From Harold Werner's point of view, Armija Krajowa was as bad Germans.

Harold Werner also mentions Armija Krajowa bands and their anti-Jewish activities after Germans were gone. This is confirmed by this link

The Polish underground seized the opportunity to resume its operations—this time mainly against Jewish survivors. On the night of March 11, 1945, Polish “patriots,” members of the Armia Krajowa (AK), stormed £osice, Mordy, and Mokobody, searching for Jews. The Jews in £osice knew they were in mortal peril and hid. But the A.K. men murdered eleven of twenty survivors in Mordy and seven of fifteen in Mokobody. Even women and children were not spared.

I took the spelling from the book. I apologize if it is incorrect.

Here is google on armia krajowa jews
All links are from the first page. The first one is the same wikipidia page I posted before. Second - http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/pages/t002/t00215.html

The Armia Krajowa was an underground fighting organization which operated in Poland from 1939 to 1945. It carried out armed raids, bombed railway shipments and participated in partisan fights against Nazis. In Feb. 1942, it created a Section for Jewish Affairs which collected data about the Jews. It provided little practical help to the Jewish underground.

There is also a link to Treblinka and Sobibor.

...it is known that the Armia Krajowa was not distinguished by its sympathy for the Jews..
...Furthermore, survivors of Treblinka tell of many instances in which Armia Krajowa people conspired against them after their escape from the camp. (For testimonies of escapees from the camp who were given a hostile reception by the surrounding population, see Abram Krzepicki, "Relacje dwoch zbiegow z Treblinki II," BZIH, No. 40, 1961, pp. 78-88. Sereny, op. cit., pp.244-245; testimony of Goldfarb, op.cit., pp.28-29)

And the last one

The main Polish underground force, the Home Army (Armia Krajowa or AK), was not interested in helping an armed rising that might endanger its own far more long term preparations. The Communists on the other hand were in favour of an instant guerrilla war.

[kaiser80]

a and c wrong, b wright - conserning all historical background and a simple balance of our relations, Polish attitude to Jews is clearly positive.

Do I have to consider US for antipolonism because of Visa policy or polish jokes or to be more precise of a common image of a stereotypical Pole - a drunk looser?

[kaiser80]

To sum up.

The thread was about our tragical event which we have a right to commemorate. Pabianice disturbed the course of the thread in reminding of the event that probably took place. That doesn't change the fact that there are other occasions to commemorate those victimes. What he had done is simply an offence of the feelings we have a rigth to have.

What would you feel if some guy disturbed the commemoration of the Oswiecim victimes by saing that Jews are no better than Nazis because they are murdering innocent Palestinians????

By dishonouring the remembrance of the symbol of Polish patriotism - Armia Krajowa and by persistent drowning down the extermination of Polish citizens and our tragic history you give an justified reason to dislike Jews. This is not antisemitism. I don't nessecery have to like what some of you do.

A persistant exaggeration of our sins and a persistant and common oblivion of our good sites in history make some of us dislike Jews. Considere this before you shall write such a BS.

[kaiser80]

ping, can you agree with me?

[dervish]

A persistant exaggeration of our sins and a persistant and common oblivion of our good sites in history make some of us dislike Jews. Considere this before you shall write such a BS.

I tried to ignore this comment the last few times someone mentioned it in this thread -- keep your mouth shut or we will "dislike" all Jews, or withdraw support for Israel, etc. You know be passive like you were the last time. Yes, historically the Jews have kept their mouths shut. And we know how well that went.

Stop. Have you any idea how bad that comes off? Please don't threaten racial/religious hatred. It really does not make you look like the good guys here.

Respect not threats all around.

[dervish]

If that is your answer, how do you explain anti-Semitic laws in Poland prior to WWII?

[kaiser80]

Eighter you can't read or don't want to understand what I have to say.

I have not written that you should shut the F... up, between the lines there is written that some of you (pabianice) should have shut the f up in this particular situation/thread. Do you like to be considered as narrow minded? Because I have a justified feeling that you do everything to be perceived as a narrow minded...

[kaiser80]

Well to be honest I daresay that the Jews are to blame....I can't also understand why some of them allowed to be passed or even voted on those antisemitic laws...Half the goverment was of jewish descent...sarcasm

[Polak z Polski]

Hey how about opening YOUR eyes, and maybe your head!
A great many Poles lost their lives attempting to hide or otherwise help Jews. The AK's Zegota was an organization that helped Jews, no other country had anything like this.
When the Jews in the II Polish Corps deserted when the Corps reached Palestine, the Poles turned a blind eye.
You and those like you basically throw dirt on what good people did, and blame all the wrong people.

If you feel so wronged by Poland, go dig up the fuhrer and tell him that the Poles were being brutal with you. Ask him for his help. I'm sure he would gladly risk his life, were he alive, to save you.

[lizol]

Definitely.

[dervish]

Ok I accept this. No I don't think I am narrow minded. Driven, dogged and stubborn I will reluctantly admit./smile

Should we examine your faults next?

[chukcha]

To sum up.

Read my initial message #78. I clearly stated that posters should stick to the topic of the thread.

Armia Krajowa discussion was started by lizol in message #90. As I indicated in message #106, him and his buddies are masters at switching subject of a thread.

[kaiser80]

Stubborn you are, definatelly. Listen, as I've written I've Jewish ancesstors. I'm aware of the bad things some mf's did to the Jewish people also poles. But generally Jews owe a lot to Poland and Poles. The bad things that were going out should not darken the generally positive relations.

[chukcha]

Hey how about opening YOUR eyes, and maybe your head!

I have read and am reading A LOT on the subject of Poland and Jews.

Do you read what I post or it just flies by your open head?