Posted on 02/07/2005 11:33:38 PM PST by JohnHuang2
I am not your ‘bro’. You are showing us that you are of your father, a liar, a murderer from the start.
“I think it has been demons, who appeared to the children at a Fatima.”
Of course. I believe that as well. My cousin is a minister in Italy, and a lot odd things happen there, e.g., statues “crying”. Demonic.
Of course, I disagree, but I never agree with you. You should stop putting your own spin on it. I suggest you read the Bible.
Discuss the issues all you want but do not make it personal.
This goes for all members while posting in the Religion Forum.
If you see a violation of the guidelines send me a FR mail.
Doors and buildings must have been huge! How big of giants are we talking about?
Mark: Did Enoch say 300 or 3,000 cubits tall for these giants? I forget.
But the flood did not destroy all flesh. Noah would have only been able to populate the ark with animals from those that God said were corrupted. Thus, the flood ends and the animals procreate and the corruption (in whatever form it was) is passed along.
You’ve been warned to stop making it personal.
Click on my name at the bottom of this reply and study the Guidelines.
Get back to the issues and stop with the personal comments.
The scripture seems to say the Old Testament sons of God were angels. They were with God during the creation:
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding . . . When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" -- Job 38:4,7 KJV
The LXX translates that passage to read "angels":
"Where wast thou when I founded the earth? tell me now, if thou hast knowledge . . . When the stars were made, all my angels praised me with a loud voice." -- Job 38:4,7 LXX
That rules out the sons of Seth as the Sons of God.
This is the historical progression of the A.D. narrative, beginning with Josephus in the first Century. First, a footnote by the translator:
"This notion, that the fallen angels were, in some sense, the fathers of the old giants, was the constant opinion of antiquity." [Josephus, Flavius, “The Complete Works: Antiquities of the Jews.” Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1934, fn43, p.58]
This is Josephus:
"Now this posterity of Seth continued to esteem God as the Lord of the universe, and to have an entire regard to virtue, for seven generations; but in process of time they were perverted, and forsook the practices of their forefathers; and did neither pay those honors to God which were appointed them, nor had they any concern to do justice towards men. But for what degree of zeal they had formerly shown for virtue, they now showed by their actions a double degree of wickedness, whereby they made God to be their enemy. For many angels of God accompanied with women, and begat sons that proved unjust, and despisers of all that was good, on account of the confidence they had in their own strength; for the tradition is, that these men did what resembled the acts of those whom the Grecians call giants. But Noah was very uneasy at what they did; and being displeased at their conduct, persuaded them to change their dispositions and their acts for the better: but seeing they did not yield to him, but were slaves to their wicked pleasures, he was afraid they would kill him, together with his wife and children, and those they had married; so he departed out of that land.” [Ibid. Book III.3.1, p.58]
Second Century:
Third Century:"These angels, then, who have fallen from heaven, and haunt the air and the earth, and are no longer able to rise to heavenly things, and the souls of the giants, which are the demons who wander about the world, perform actions similar, the one (that is, the demons) to the natures they have received, the other (that is, the angels) to the appetites they have indulged.” [Roberts & Donaldson, Athenagora, A Plea for Christians, “Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 02.” Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1913, Chap.XXV, p.317]
"When Almighty God, to beautify the nature of the world, willed that that earth should be visited by angels, when they were sent down they despised His laws. Such was the beauty of women, that it turned them aside; so that, being contaminated, they could not return to heaven. Rebels from God, they uttered words against Him. Then the Highest uttered His judgment against them; and from their seed giants are said to have been born. By them arts were made known in the earth, and they taught the dyeing of wool, and everything which is done; and to them, when they died, men erected images. But the Almighty, because they were of an evil seed, did not approve that, when dead, they should be brought back from death. Whence wandering they now subvert many bodies, and it is such as these especially that ye this day worship and pray to as gods.” [Roberts & Donaldson, Commodianus, The Instructions, The Worship of Demons, “Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 04.” Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1913, Chap III, Gen 6:4, p.466]
This is one of the first, if not the first ECF who expressed some doubt about the angel/woman understanding, also in the 3rd Century:
"When men multiplied on the earth, the angels of heaven came together with the daughters of men. In some copies I found ‘the sons of God.’ What is meant by the Spirit, in my opinion, is that the descendants of Seth are called the sons of God on account of the righteous men and patriarchs who have sprung from him, even down to the Saviour Himself; but that the descendants of Cain are named the seed of men, as having nothing divine in them, on account of the wickedness of their race and the inequality of their nature, being a mixed people, and having stirred the indignation of God. But if it is thought that these refer to angels, we must take them to be those who deal with magic and jugglery, who taught the women the motions of the stars and the knowledge of things celestial, by whose power they conceived the giants as their children, by whom wickedness came to its height on the earth, until God decreed that the whole race of the living should perish in their impiety by the deluge.” [Roberts & Donaldson, Julius Africanus, On the Mythical Chronology of the Egyptians and Chaldeans., “Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 06.” Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1886, Chap II, p.310]
And, finally, Augustine in the early 5th century:
"These words of the divine book sufficiently indicate that already there were giants in the earth in those days, in which the sons of God took wives of the children of men, when they loved them because they were good, that is, fair. For it is the custom of this Scripture to call those who are beautiful in appearance ‘good.’ But after this connection had been formed, then too were giants born. For the words are: ‘There were giants in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men.’ Therefore there were giants both before, ‘in those days,’ and ‘also after that.’ And the words, ‘they bare children to them,’ show plainly enough that before the sons of God fell in this fashion they begat children to God, not to themselves,—that is to say, not moved by the lust of sexual intercourse, but discharging the duty of propagation, intending to produce not a family to gratify their own pride, but citizens to people the city of God; and to these they as God’s angels would bear the message, that they should place their hope in God, like him who was born of Seth, the son of resurrection, and who hoped to call on the name of the Lord God, in which hope they and their offspring would be co-heirs of eternal blessings, and brethren in the family of which God is the Father.” [Schaff, Philip, Augustine, The City of God, “Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Ser 1 Vol 02.” Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1886, Book XV.23, p.304]
It appears Augustine either rewrote history, or history was rewritten within a century or two before his arrival.
Mr. Kalamata
That sounds reasonable, but consider this: when one kind of animal was cross-bred with another kind of animal, that produced an entirely new kind of animal, such as the dinosaur. But that does not necessarily mean that all of the offspring and relatives of the parents were corrupted -- just those that were cross-bred, and their offspring.
I personally believe that Noah, his wife and his sons were pure. The corruption appears to have been carried forward by Ham's wife through their son, Canaan. Recall how adamantly God warned his chosen people against intermarriage with certain nations of the children of Canaan:
"When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son." -- Deu 7:1-3 KJV
Mr. Kalamata
There is questions about it. Check out Amos 2:9 I think the first generation Nephilim were more commonly called Titans. Succeeding generations got smaller. Goliath was one of these, but I think he was a rather small giant, compared to the titans. King David picked up 5 stones, in case he had to deal with Goliath’s brothers. He was going to kill every one of them if he had to.
Now, as to why this all happened in the first place. Were these fallen angels just a bunch of horny dudes? I don’t know, but God had already told Satan, that a savior would be born. In order for the savior to do his job, he would have to be fully human. Their aim, may very well have been to corrupt the human genome, so they were hybrids, half human and half angelic. The implication is, since all died, except 8, that the entire human race had been infected by the Nephilim. The fallen angels might have been a bit horny, but I think there was more to it. I believe they knew they were stepping in to virgin territory, and they knew that God would be more than a little upset over it. Somehow, Satan was able to convince some of them (200??) to do this. They were beaten severely about the head and shoulders, and tossed into Tartarus. It must have been an awful time on earth.
I think the Flood had been predicted. I think Noah, Methuselah, and maybe Lamech preached for that 120 year period they were given. The Flood would not occur while Methuselah was still alive. The Flood came the year Methuselah died. I think the fossilized bodies of these monsters, are strewn across the world. I have physically seen two of them. The sleeping lady in West Texas and the old man of the mountain in New Hampshire. Mr K, the floor is yours. 😁😆👍
Sam, let me take a stab at that. First, let me say, that I think God did create a “dinosaur” that huge plant eating thing with the super long neck and the super long tail. The word “dinosaur,” did not exist till the 19th century. I think monsters like the T Rex, were genetically created, and were never created by God. To make a long story short, I think they never lined up to get on the Ark, or they were not allowed on the Ark, and died in the Flood.
I think everything was big in the ante diluvian world, and I think those big things, like Devils Tower in Wyoming, are gigantic tree stumps. I don’t believe lava flows make perfect hexagonal columns. 😁
“The sleeping lady in West Texas”
Another question I’d have is were any of them in fact female?
I would agree that as each successive generation passed, their size/stature and strength diminished. Just like us humans.
We are a very weak and ‘dumb’ version of what the original Adam was.
Female Nephilim, yes.
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