Islam, Orthodoxy, and Protestants

Bridegroom Press ^ | Steve Kellmeyer

[skellmeyer]

Roughly half of America dislike everything George Bush says, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t the President of the United States. This is a point too few people keep in mind. Take, for instance, the example of Stas, a very nice Orthodox man, who read my recent piece on concerning the Muslim reporter who implicitly threatened to kill me and nuke America. He thought the piece excellent except for my statement that the Pope was the head of Christianity: “As for the Pope, 1 billion various protestants and 300 million Orthodox don't follow his words and that's half of Christianity.” To keep things honest, a Mormon and a Protestant also voiced essentially this disagreement.

I could have pointed out, as I do here, that his statement proves nothing about either the Pope or the President, but I demurred. Instead, I merely pointed out that there are no major theological differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, apart from a minor theological point concerning the generation of the Holy Spirit and his aforementioned quibble concerning the Pope. He insisted I was wrong, and in attempting to demonstrate his case, he inadvertently made a connection between Orthodoxy and Islam that I had read about, but never really seen in action before.

[Buggman]

I've already responded to you on the definition of "anathema" according to your own sources. Ergo, my first post stands.

[RussianBoor]

Well, if you remember, we started with differences between Christians and Muslims. You have started this thread yourself. Now it seems that petty differences between Christians and gaining power over non-catholics are more important to RC church and you than all problems stemming from Muslim intolerance. There is no love in your words whatsoever, sorry. I cannot continue like that. That's what I perceive as a major problem with Catholic church. Power over people is more important and has always been more important throughout the history than any unity among Christians. In fact, I cannot but remember the 4th Crusade that was supposed to be fought against Muslims but ended with sacking of Constantinople instead. It seems nothing has changed since then as far as some Catholics are concerned. A pity.

[k2blader]

Your thought on the "subservience of women" in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam could be the fodder for a whole new thread! Again, it is an easy generalization to make, but no doubt there are many many specific differences.

I'm not sure about Jewish women, but Protestant women have total access to everything (the Bible, clergy, various written resources, etc.) Protestant men do, except for (in some denominations) ordination.

Are you saying that Muslim women have that too?

[k2blader]

Okay. Define how Muslims view "priesthood".

[Destro]

Before this conversation degenerates any - I am not saying Protestants are Muslims - only that the way some Protestants view clergy and other things like stands on images and even prohibitions on drinking alcohol and dancing do in fact resemble Islamic practices and belief.

Other Protestants have clergy (Lutherans) and allow dancing and drinking spirits in moderation as well as dancing.

[B-Chan]

By divorcing the loving husband-wife sexual act from its intrinsic nature in the process of human union and human reproduction, the use of artficial contraceptives reduces the sexual act to just another form of pleasure-seeking play (i.e. entertainment), and thus reduces women to the status of sexual playthings (i.e. whores). Abortion obviously kills children. Therefore, the statement "And as long as you refuse the power of [the Pope's] words, your wives will be prostitutes and your children corpses" is essentially correct.

As to how we Catholics view our fellow sinners and Christians who are not in union with the Church: any group that teaches anything other than what Christ and His Church teach is heretical. Christ and His Church have always condemned artificial contraception and deliberate abortion as being acts of grave depravity -- mortal sins. Therefore, any group that teaches that artificial contraception and/or abortion are acceptable behaviors for a Christian is teaching error -- and is therefore anti-life, anti-Church, and antichrist.

This is not to say that any given individual is antichrist. The Church and its temporal Vicar have the right and duty to approve or condemn any teaching purporting to be that of Christ. The Pope and the Bishops in union with him have the Authority of the Keys, given to them by Our Lord Himself, to bind and loose both in Heaven and on Earth. This authority gives them the right in the Name of Christ to pass judgment on any doctrine of men. As to the spiritual state of any given person who may belong to one of these groups, that is not for any man to judge.

[k2blader]

An "Islamic leader" isn't clergy? Please explain.

Does that mean a Muslim woman with a sense of leadership could step outside of her house and say, "I declare a fatwa on blah blah blah," and people around her would listen?

[Buggman]

Oh, and here's another one:

"That there is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church we are compelled by faith to believe and hold, and we firmly believe in her and sincerely confess her, outside of whom there is neither salvation nor remission of sins . . . Furthermore, we declare, state, and define that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of all human beings that they submit to the Roman Pontiff [Porro subesse Romano Pontifici omni humanae creaturae declaramus, dicimus, definimus, et pronunciamus omnino esse de necessitate salutis]."

-- POPE BONIFACE VIII, Bull Unam Sanctam (November 18, 1302 AD) as cited in The Christian Faith by Neuner/Dupuis, page 280-1

So, either Pope Boniface VIII was not only wrong, but downright heretical in his bull, or it is the official Catholic teaching that all Protestants are going to hell.

[k2blader]

I am not saying Protestants are Muslims - only that the way some Protestants view clergy and other things like stands on images and even prohibitions on drinking alcohol and dancing do in fact resemble Islamic practices and belief.

If that is all you're trying to say, you could say similar things about Catholics resembling Muslims. This is meaningless.

[k2blader]

Thanks for your thoughts.

So far we have 2 Catholics in agreeance with the rest of us being pimps/prostitutes and our children "corpses", and one opposed.

[Destro]

No you can't.

[B-Chan]

You're welcome.

I'm curious on one point, though: Would you not agree that a woman whose sexual function serves only as a means of pleasure for a man is a whore?

As for children being corpses, this applies only to the ones who are physically killed by the use of artificial contraception and/or abortion.

Thanks!

[investigateworld]

If I were in charge of plotting strategy for the Evil One, I'd sure make it a point to divide my enemy.
As each 'segment' of His Church has different interpretations and though processes, we are making it easy for him. Our only defense is to focus on Christ's teachings.

[olde north church]

First Pillar of Islam:
Allah is God and Mohammed is His Prophet.
implied:
1. Prophet is in near stature to deity.
Comparable to YHWH is God and Moses is His Prophet. That would be elevating the prophet to level of deity. Almost as if, there is no other God before Me but My messenger is close behind.
2. Prophet is only arbiter/controller/interpreter on law/dogma. There can be no ecumenical debate.
3. Dismisses the claimed connection to previous ME religious doctrine.
-------------
Arianism was an understandable belief simply because of Buddhic/Hindic missionary influence in the ME.

[Campion]

Not to mention the Council of Trent, a few hundred papal bulls

As I pointed out, an anathema, in Catholic usage, is a formal excommunication. You can't excommunicate a non-Catholic, because they aren't able to communicate in the first place.

None of those anathemas apply to you or to HarleyD.

It's possible to argue about whether they applied to e.g., Luther or Calvin personally, however.

The "Papists condemn all Protestants to hell but think Hindus are saved" line is getting kind of old. It comes from a rather willful and selective reading of various things. Protestants have more of the means of salvation at their disposal (especially valid baptism and the Scriptures) than do Hindus. You start out ahead, therefore, you ought to finish ahead.

[Destro]

Reads like some Protestant views on the priesthood to me:

In Islam there’s no church as an institution as such, there’s no clergy. Islam doesn’t accept the notion that a particular group of people can claim for themselves to be representatives of God on earth. The entire human race is regarded, in a sense, as representatives of God on earth.

[k2blader]

Thanks for the discussion anyway. It is interesting.

[Modernman]

I'm curious on one point, though: Would you not agree that a woman whose sexual function serves only as a means of pleasure for a man is a whore?

How about if her sexual function also serves as a means of pleasure for her? It seems remarkably sexist to reduce sex to whether or not it provides sexual pleasure for the man.

[Religion Moderator]

That's enough. If you haven't learned your lesson after a week off, you'll be gone completely in short order.

[Campion]

and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate

Please note the pronoun. Last time I checked, saying "I think you're going to hell" is not the same thing as saying "I'm herewith sending you to hell".

God gets the last call, as always.

The point also remains that canonical penalties have nothing to do with non-Catholics, and the penalty of anathema does not exist, even for Catholics, since 1983.