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But we were asking whether the bird was in fact a purely material system (in contradistinction to a living system); and as such, wholly subject to the physical laws. It seems to me that, if it were, then we would be able exactly to plot its path, once it is on the wing.

Can we predict the path of a tornado? Can we eve predict when and where the tornado will form? Can we do this 24 hours in advance? If we can't does this mean a tornado is not physical?

In what conceptual sense is the emergent property of matter that we call life different from other emergent propteries, such as the properties of water as opposed to those of its constituent elements?

In what conceptual sense is the emergent property of matter that we call life different from other emergent propteries, such as the properties of water as opposed to those of its constituent elements?

To quote Descartes,"I think, therefore I am."

Or to quote DUmmies, "I don't think, therefore I voted for Kerry." :-)

self awareness, for one thing, seems relatively non-trivial. As well as confusion, mistakes, humor, morality, or
(to quote Doonesbury)
Horniness.

Full Disclosure: It was part of a strip with B.D. arguing philosophy with other football players in the huddle. Early 70's vintage.

"Horniness is NOT an emotion, dummy.!"
"Hold it, let's take a vote!"

In what conceptual sense is the emergent property of matter that we call life different from other emergent properties, such as the properties of water as opposed to those of its constituent elements?

In what conceptual sense are we required to accept as our initial premise that “life” is an “emergent property of matter?” Aren’t you arbitrarily narrowing the scope of possible analytical outcomes by so doing, with possible prejudice to any truthful description of reality?

It seems to me obvious that “life” found a way to “emerge” (or evolve) from “matter.” All I allege is that “matter” did not “write the program” stipulating this result.

So I’ll continue to argue that life cannot be understood as an emergent property of matter. In addition to the necessary physical basis (which obeys the universal laws of physics), life requires something more just in order to be alive. Science seems to be testing these waters (assuming they can be tested at all) mainly through physics, information theory, and mathematics these days. They may be on to something.

As you note, water is more than the sum of its constituent parts. You could take any of those parts in isolation, or in any combination, and “interview them.” But they would fail to explain the nature of the whole of which they are the parts and participants.

You asked: “Can we predict the path of a tornado? Can we even predict when and where the tornado will form? Can we do this 24 hours in advance? If we can't does this mean a tornado is not physical?”

I think you are trying to compare apples and oranges here. I will concede that the tornado is a self-organizing system. But is that necessarily the same thing as an emergent system? There is an emergent system that I know of, called the human race, that not only has the power to organize itself (in some fashion) at the individual, family, and societal levels; but it organizes (or disorganizes, depending on your point of view) the surrounding physical/ecological environment, as well.

Tornados don’t “organize” anything. The point about tornados is they ineluctably “deconstruct” most everything in their path.

Thank you so much for writing, js1138.