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To: Eurotwit

If employers are going to be paying the health insurance then they have the right to do this. Health insurance used to be a bonus incentive. It's now regarded as an entitlement. Beggars can't be choosers. Flame away.


3 posted on 01/28/2005 11:09:53 AM PST by cyborg
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To: cyborg

No flame here. As I see it, benefits offered by employers are enticements, not entitlements.


7 posted on 01/28/2005 11:24:29 AM PST by azhenfud ("He who is always looking up seldom finds others' lost change...")
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To: cyborg
If employers are going to be paying the health insurance then they have the right to do this. Health insurance used to be a bonus incentive. It's now regarded as an entitlement.

Increasingly, we are seeing that health insurance costs being shifted to the employee. As premiums increase, the costs will be borne by the worker. I believe that many health insurers "factor in" the numerous ills of the employee pool to set their rates. Employees do not have an entitlement to health insurance. Health insurance coverage is a benefit offered by the employer to recruit and keep employees.

11 posted on 01/28/2005 11:31:08 AM PST by afnamvet
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To: cyborg
I'm not gonna flame you, but I would like to suggest that if the employer doesn't like paying for health insurance, and he has the option not to, then maybe he should do that, rather than opening himself up to public condemnation and/or a lawsuit by fired employees. That kind of thing may end up costing him more money down the line.

If health insurance is an incentive to get employees, then perhaps that incentive should be eliminated if it's too costly. That's just as valid an option, if the bottom line is really what they are after. As far as I know, nobody forces employers to pay the premiums for their employees...so why not simply pass the costs along when someone chooses to smoke or make other expensive "lifestyle choices". They still get the benefits of offering insurance coverage as an incentive without the costs of covering someone they don't want to.
23 posted on 01/28/2005 11:42:58 AM PST by exnavychick (There's too much youth; how about a fountain of smart?)
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To: cyborg

Yes, philosophically you may be correct. But this is still liberal idiocy. The number of smokers is now so low, that this definitely falls into the category of wasted effort in pursuit of diminishing returns. Someone has way too much time on their hands - let me turn it around and say that whichever Sigma Black Belt or bean counter thought this one up should be fired for incompetence. There is so much low hanging fruit in terms of cost reduction - this is mouse nuts.


28 posted on 01/28/2005 11:44:05 AM PST by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Take Back The GOP!)
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To: cyborg

"If employers are going to be paying the health insurance then they have the right to do this. Health insurance used to be a bonus incentive. It's now regarded as an entitlement. Beggars can't be choosers. Flame away."


Employers have the right to do this in the 21 states where state law does not prohibit it. In the 29 states where state law says that employers cannot do this, they will be punished if they try.

Michigan and California are among those 21 states.

Employers have the right to fire employees there for smoking off duty.
But then, of course, employees in those states, and every other state, have the right to organize themselves into unions while ON duty, and the employer cannot fire them for that.

So, if this has to come down to a battle of rights, I'd humbly suggest that employers are going to end up getting the bad end of the baseball bat here. Firing employees is a right if they are not doing something protected by law. Smoking at home is not protected by law. But organizing a union at work, on company time, IS protected by law.

And this is precisely the sort of petty and abusive behavior by employers, as it becomes widespread, that has the real potential to rejuvenate the union movement.

Is that what we want?
Sure, employers have a great number of rights to hire and fire. But no rights are unlimited. All rights are subject to limitation when they start being abused.

Firing people for smoking in their off-duty time, or being a tad overweight, is abusive. It pisses people off. Even people who haven't heard about it.

So, here we are, with nice momentum in the conservative revolution, and some jackass employers pull a stunt like this which is just BOUND to produce a nasty backlash.

Is that what we need?
These abusive employers need to be slapped down, hard and fast, or the People are going to get mad and start imposing more rules. With every right comes responsibility. Employers have been given tremendous latitude in hiring and firing. The democracy and the courts, and unions, can take those rights away and cut them back if the People get mad enough. And believe you me this sort of intervention in people's private lives is making a lot of people mad, now that it's out in the open.

This is a fight that we conservatives are not going to win, and trying to fight it is going to damage us.


49 posted on 01/28/2005 12:10:10 PM PST by Vicomte13 (La nuit s'acheve!)
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To: cyborg

Gee whiz.. Well how about old people? Oh, that's right, I can't discriminate based on age. Well if you have ever had a chronic illness, cancer, diabetes, or any major surgeory guess what? You fired. I only want young healthy, thin, and come to think of it GOOD LOOKING people at my job. Ugly, fat, sick, and those that may become pregnant NEED NOT APPLY!


111 posted on 01/28/2005 1:54:51 PM PST by Smogger
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