Posted on 01/26/2005 10:37:01 PM PST by neverdem
The Shroud of Turin is much older than the medieval date that modern science has affixed to it and could be old enough to have been the burial wrapping of Jesus, a new analysis concludes.
Since 1988, most scientists have confidently concluded that it was the work of a medieval artist, because carbon dating had placed the production of the fabric between 1260 and 1390.
In an article this month in the journal Thermochimica Acta, Dr. Raymond N. Rogers, a chemist retired from Los Alamos National Laboratory, said the carbon dating test was valid but that the piece tested was about the size of a postage stamp and came from a portion that had been patched.
"We're darned sure that part of the cloth was not original Shroud of Turin cloth," he said, adding that threads from the main part of the shroud were pure linen, which is spun from flax.
The threads in the patched portion contained cotton as well and had been dyed to match.
From other tests, he estimated that the shroud was between 1,300 and 3,000 years old.
What the hell are you blathering about now?
Boy, is he ever.
When it comes to establishing faith, it is unimportant. Believers don't need it, and unbelievers won't accept it. (Even if you could prove it came from the appropriate timeframe, unbelievers would then demand that you prove it belonged to Jesus.)
It is important and interesting for study. But ultimately, it is the Holy Spirit that draws us, not a shroud.
Different things. Thomas was looking right at Jesus, someone he had walked with for three years. I don't see how that compares to the every day unbeliever.
" The Shroud is not meaningless."
If you think the shroud is going to convert unbelievers, then you would not only have to prove to them that the shroud came from the correct timeframe, but that it was, indeed, the shroud of Jesus, AND that the interesting markings were caused by the resurrection.
Remember, we're talking unbelievers here.
Good luck with that.
I am a theologian. Judeo Christian belief is perverted when we venerate things or people. Only God should be venerated.
Amen
Certainly true.
Little doubt that Jesus had Type AB blood, or what he looked like to those with an open mind.
Jesus was God. He could have had marshmallow cream for blood.
The nails through the wrists is a myth. The few crucifixions that we have evidence for shows a variety of positions for nails. Sometimes ropes were used, and: "A small board or peg may have been provided as sort of a seat to bear some of the weight of the condemned (this actually may have prolonged suffering by prohibiting suffocation)"
The nails DID NOT support the weight of the condemned.
And those who cite the English translation of Scripture fail to understand the definitions and uages of the words in the original Greek. It is also helpful to understand the customs and practices of the time and place the Gospels are describing.
As a matter of fact, the Sudarion of Oviedo, a piece of blood stained, dirty linen about 30" on a side) has been kept in a Cathedral in Oviedo, Spain, since at least the ninth Century. It is believed to be the second cloth, the head cloth, of which you speak.
Forensic scientists have determined that the Sudarion and the Shroud have matching blood flows from identical wounds in identical locations, share the same blood type (if the blood typing is accurate), and that the head both cloths covered match in demension and form; their conclusion is that BOTH cloths covered the same dead body at different times within minutes or hours of each other.
Analysis indicates the Sudarion was placed over the dead man's head while his body was still suspended on the cross. It was removed and most likely used as a binding to keep the mouth closed by being wrapped under the jaw and over the top of the head under the hair just in front of the ears and then tied in a knot at the crown of the head. This comports with known Jewish burial practices of the 1st Century. Other twisted strip bindings would be used to tie the wrists and the ankles to keep them from flopping to the side when rigor mortis passed in a few hours or days.
With the understanding of HOW Jews prepared their dead for burial, the descriptions of the grave clothes in the Gospels and the evidence of the Shroud are not incompatible. In fact, this understanding explains a lot. For example, the first people into the tomb found the shroud lying in the niche where the body had been left... but the head cloth, the sudarion, lying "folded" (actually the original Greek is better translated as "rolled") by itself some distance away. One can picture the risen Christ, leaving his shroud, walking toward the opening and reaching up and pulling the jaw binding "head cloth" off as He walks and dropping it, casting off the garments of death.
Again, you use the ENGLISH translation... "wrapped"... of a Greek word that basically meant "placed around" or "wound around". The English translators did a very good job of finding words that approximated the Greek if there were not direct equivalent English words. "Wrapped" did an admirable job for the English translation but one has to know the custom of binding the jaw to keep the mouth closed in death to properly understand that it did not necessarily mean that it covered the face.
As I showed you in my previous post, it is not inconsistent to have TWO cloths around the head... without one covering the other and blocking the image making mechanism.
In fact, there is evidence of the binding cloth on the Shroud in the fact that many have commented on the hair being pushed forward from where it would fall normally if gravity were the only force. Tests of human subjects with long hair and beards assuming the same position show that such a binding, placed under the jaw and under the hair in front of the ears, PUSHES the hair forward, keeps the jaw shut, obscures the top of the head, and is not visible to anyone looking face on to the supine test subject... all of which is consistent with what we see on the Shroud of Turin.
Relics are an invention of organized religion... and hollywood (i.e. "The Robe").
Relics are the bodies of the saints. Second-class relics are objects that the saints have touched. Nothing particularly "religious" about that.
Do relics have special powers? You be the judge.
Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano
Blood of St. Januarius
Incorrupt bodies of the saints
Shroud of Turin
Sudarium of Oviedo
Scripture confirms the sometimes miraculous power of relics:
2 Kings 13:21Once while some Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders; so they threw the man's body into Elisha's tomb. When the body touched Elisha's bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet.
Do you know the name of the Head Cloth worn by Jesus and where it is housed today? I think it's somewhere in Spain. Thanks.
Sudarium of Oviedo
THANK YOU!!!!!!
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Like Thomas.
Acutually, and I hope this isn’t too much of a digression, but I was reading the responses of human’s to God’s various wrath’s in the book of Revelation. I read things such as “they cursed God”, “hide us from the wrath of the lamb” that sort of thing. This suggests that folks really will instinctively know who it is that is judging the Earth. They just, as a general rule, will not repent or if they have taken the “mark” will receive the consequences of that action.
In the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus; the former rich man being thusly “flamed” so to speak was told that “his remaining family had “Moses and the prophets and if they didn’t believe them, they wouldn’t believe the warnings from a man risen from the dead either”
The point is that the truth of God is all around us and even if the shroud was beyond all doubt Christ’s, it won’t change the heart of a large mass of humanity. They’ll still find ways rejecting Christ and the father.
Man kind wasn’t seduced by the notion that there is no real devine reality. Mankind was seduced by the notion that we could become literally like God by doing what God had forbidden; as if the very act and free will choice of rebellion would make us like the gods.
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