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Shroud of Turin: Old as Jesus?
THE NEW YORK TIMES ^ | January 27, 2005 | NA

Posted on 01/26/2005 10:37:01 PM PST by neverdem

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To: TonyRo76
Also, (am I mean to say this?) it's very gratifying to see all the obstinate doubters, haters and other atheist jerks in the "science" community frustrated in their efforts to disprove something revered by Christians. HAHA!

Agreed! Seriously, it's funny watching assorted scientists, atheists, and "brights" expose themselves for the pompous asses they are, resroting to the use of the dreaded "faith" in asserting that they know, just know the Shroud is a fake because...well, it just has to be, right?
221 posted on 01/27/2005 5:07:44 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: dangus

It's very possible I goofed. From what I have found, It appears the Great Flood happened approximately around 8000BC? I also found the great Pyramids to be built approximately 3000BC. I'm trying to relate Biblical happenings to historical facts. Thank you for your input.


222 posted on 01/27/2005 5:21:46 PM PST by Walkenfree (Bad can get worse & good can get better.)
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To: neverdem

bookmark


223 posted on 01/27/2005 5:22:08 PM PST by Semaphore Heathcliffe
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To: Conservative til I die

Grow a brain.


224 posted on 01/27/2005 5:26:54 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: LibertarianInExile
Look, I don't have a problem believing that Jesus wiped his face or that there could exist A shroud. This just ain't it.

Please provide your irrefutable proof wich shows that the Shroud is without a doubt fake right here------->
225 posted on 01/27/2005 6:06:23 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: dangus
I kept scratching my head saying, "an atheist wrote this?"

And a pompous ass of an atheist to boot. Used to love Sagan until I started to see the condescension in his books towards religious belief.
226 posted on 01/27/2005 6:10:35 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: Northern Yankee; NYer; LibertarianInExile
Who cares, anyway? What's the point? Ooooh, it's Christ's sweat, it's holy! Not.

This is from an article I read yesterday.

Excerpt

A research paper published in Thermochimica Acta suggests the shroud is between 1,300 and 3,000 years old.

The author dismisses 1988 carbon-14 dating tests which concluded that the linen sheet was a medieval fake.

The shroud, which bears the faint image of a blood-covered man, is believed by some to be Christ's burial cloth.

Raymond Rogers says his research and chemical tests show the material used in the 1988 radiocarbon analysis was cut from a medieval patch woven into the shroud to repair fire damage.

This was responsible for an invalid date being assigned to the original shroud cloth, he argues.

"The radiocarbon sample has completely different chemical properties than the main part of the shroud relic," said Mr Rogers, who is a retired chemist from Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, US.

"The sample tested was dyed using technology that began to appear in Italy about the time the crusaders' last bastion fell to the Mameluke Turks in AD 1291," said Mr Rogers.

"The radiocarbon sample cannot be older than about AD 1290, agreeing with the age determined in 1988. However, the shroud itself is actually much older."

Some now hope the Vatican will give approval for samples of the shroud to be re-tested.

But, says Mr Minor, "the church is very hesitant, very reluctant for that to be done, because they've been given so many conflicting opinions". LINK

In other words, there is no conclusive evidence that the shroud is a fake, thus I would trust the opinions of those with professional expertise in this area far more than our armchair freeper experts.

227 posted on 01/27/2005 6:23:22 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: LibertarianInExile
Shroud is a fraud?

I guess you must know all...

And as to your final argument, "If we dismiss it and say it isn't possible, aren't we putting limitations on God?" that's just silly. You're telling me I better believe in anything, because with God, all things are possible? I don't believe in pigs that fly or poop that smells like daffodils, either. I don't see a lot of outcry for me to believe in that fantastic stuff because I can't limit God. If God was going to be peeved that I don't buy the shroud b.s., I'm sure He'd have provided more scientific backup and biblical guidance to make me believe in a holy hanky. He didn't.

I never said such a thing. I mearly said that it is possible that this could be the burial cloth of Jesus. Your absolute anger and ridicule is just more than puzzling, it's sad.

What has made you so angry of something that bring about such joy to others?

I am puzzled by your comments.

228 posted on 01/27/2005 6:31:37 PM PST by Northern Yankee (Freedom Needs A Soldier!)
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To: Victoria Delsoul
What I find amazing is that the Shroud is there for those who choose to believe.

If there are those who don't, so be it. But why would those who don't believe want to ridicule something others in the Christian faith see as sacred?

229 posted on 01/27/2005 6:59:21 PM PST by Northern Yankee (Freedom Needs A Soldier!)
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To: neverdem

Bumpus ad summum


230 posted on 01/27/2005 7:01:33 PM PST by Dajjal
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To: Northern Yankee
But why would those who don't believe want to ridicule something others in the Christian faith see as sacred?

Perhaps, we reflect our shortcomings through comments like that - at the end, it says more about us than about the subject in question... who knows.

231 posted on 01/27/2005 7:09:25 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: Northern Yankee

You might make the same arguments about faith healing or that stupid show where the con man "speaks to the dead." They both bring such joy to others. Except they're frauds, and some people do rely on these things as important. There will be religious people who are fooled by the fake shroud who will fly to see it and waste their money.

And you didn't "mearly" say "that it is possible that this could be the burial cloth of Jesus." You said that "If we dismiss it and say it isn't possible, aren't we putting limitations on God?" You tried to tell me that denying the possibility that this is Jesus's burial shroud is denying God. Your attempt to twist the words otherwise is silly, as is your attempt to make me out to be some person out to expose you to ridicule. You're the one who's selling the faux Shroud. You've exposed yourself.

But I am angry, because there are people out there whose faith in Jesus and God makes them want to believe in something and see further proof of God's love for them. These are people who need help with their faith, not to be falsely proselytized to. They shouldn't be conned into believing some fraud hanky will provide proof of God's love simply because some huckster wants to sell books, when God's love is already written down for us, and He doesn't need a hanky to demonstrate it.


232 posted on 01/27/2005 7:22:11 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: Al Simmons

I have no idea if we agree or not. Show me where I contradicted myself in an earlier post. What I suspect is that you didn't read carefully enough.


233 posted on 01/27/2005 7:25:59 PM PST by Romulus (Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?)
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To: Conservative til I die

Itis tantamount to idle worship. That is why I care.


234 posted on 01/27/2005 7:26:33 PM PST by vpintheak (Liberal = The antithesis of Freedom and Patriotism)
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To: Conservative til I die

I'm sorry, I think the Church already has provided you folks that opportunity to refute doubters, and unfortunately for your little theory, the Shroud was carbon-dated far after Christ's death. If you want to tell me that because this schmuck has posited a possible way around the test results, the Shroud is now Christ's wipey, I have proof for you that the Earth is flat. See, it's possible that all the scientific measurements saying the Earth is round were thrown off by threats from the Illuminati. I have a crackpot theory, so PRESTO!, now the Earth is flat again in the face of all scientific evidence!

Please provide your irrefutable proof that your eyesight isn't blocked by your colon right here---->


235 posted on 01/27/2005 7:28:53 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: Victoria Delsoul

"there is no conclusive evidence that the shroud is a fake"

You seem to have listened to the OJ trial. The same folks that said "there was no conclusive evidence to convict Scott Peterson" and OJ might buy that there is no conclusive evidence that the shroud is a fake--but carbon dating IS CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE.

Stating that the shroud is believable because they're putting forward this new theory that "aw, gee, maybe they carbon dated the wrong threads," that's right up there with deciding that it's PROVEN the sun revolves around the earth because "aw, gee, maybe they were using the wrong slide rule when they did the calculations for the orbit of the sun and moon."

There needs to be more than legend to prove it's Jesus's burial cloth. There needs to be provenance, and the carbon dating removes that possibility. If legend is all we need to prove something in the face of tangible evidence to the contrary, I got a fire-breathing dragon in my backyard I want to sell you. Sure, I know, no animal exists on the planet that breathes fire according to every taxonomist and biologist, but gee, I read about them in some storybooks, so they must be real.


236 posted on 01/27/2005 7:54:57 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: LibertarianInExile
but carbon dating IS CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE.

Where did I say that? You shouldn't have a problem to link to it. I said there is no conclusive evidence that it's a fake or that it is real. I'm waiting for more evidence, and I'm relying not on your opinion but on the experts. Why don't you relax a little, and stop hyperventilating?

I got a fire-breathing dragon in my backyard I want to sell you.

No thanks. I wouldn't buy a thing from you. You talk too much, lol.

237 posted on 01/27/2005 8:06:42 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: Victoria Delsoul

Where did I SAY you said that, fluffy?

I took your words from your post--"there is no conclusive evidence that the shroud is a fake"--and explained to you that there is conclusive evidence the shroud is a fake. Its carbon dating proves it's a fraud.

You want to pretend that the jury's still out, more power to you. If you decide the moon's not made of green cheese, or water is wet, let me know so I can alert the media.


238 posted on 01/27/2005 8:12:36 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: LibertarianInExile

You're as incoherent as dumb. Don't waste my time, anymore.


239 posted on 01/27/2005 8:21:44 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: Victoria Delsoul

If you don't like eating your words, don't post to me. You're the one who wasted my time first, oh great fence-sitter. Have you determined if the sky is blue or round wheels work better yet, or is that still up in the air, too?


240 posted on 01/27/2005 8:40:16 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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