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To: Wonder Warthog

I didn't say any of it was impossible - just likely to be impractical or uneconomical without new developments of one kind or another. I AM certain of a few things I stated - it will never be a practical replacement for natural gas, for instance. Electricity is a better choice for that. Which immediately reduces the exposure to gas leaks, because it eliminates the residential distribution system where most leakage occurs.

Filling a vehicle tank with a measured amount of H2 gas is a tricky - and energy intensive - business. You mentioned the way gases are sold today, and I think that might be the only practical method for H2. Specifically, vehicle tank exchange. It eliminates the problems of measurement and compression at the filling station.

Your point-to-point pipeline examples are not really a distribution system, because they do not address the number of destinations and the volume required for the application.

But a full unpressurized 20-gallon tank of ordinary gasoline contains about 120 pounds of gasoline, containing 19 pounds (8700 grams) of hydrogen. Not pressurized, the same tank would hold about 6.5 grams (1/4 ounce) of H2. How much pressure to match the same hydrogen density? Oxygen tanks are filled to 2200-2400 PSIG, or 150 to 160 atmospheres. Let's approximately double that - risky with exchangeable tanks - to 300 atm. 300 x 6.5 = 1950 g. or about 4 1/2 pounds. Oops. And how much does the tank weigh to hold that pressure? Maybe we need a better way to store H2.

Actually, I think that really clean gasoline - synthesized isooctane - might just be the fuel of the future. Diesel is too complex to synthesize economically. But octane, that can fuel both combustion engines and solid-oxide fuel cells (that oxidize the carbon to break the hydrogen free, then use the hydrogen to make electricity) is probably the transportation fuel of the future - and when we run out, we will just make more.

But please considerwhat I said before, about running most of our transportation from the electric grid. Today, 2/3 of our oil consumption is for transportation fuel, and over 95% of our transportation fuel comes from oil. Some is aviation fuel, but if we derived 90% of our ground transportation from the grid instead of oil, we would cut our consumption in HALF, and require only a single-digit percentage increase in electric capacity.

And by the way, I never mentioned the Hindenberg.


102 posted on 01/23/2005 9:24:22 PM PST by MainFrame65
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To: MainFrame65
"But please considerwhat I said before, about running most of our transportation from the electric grid. Today, 2/3 of our oil consumption is for transportation fuel, and over 95% of our transportation fuel comes from oil."

The probability of developing a sufficiently light-weight/high-energy density BATTERY is far less likely than figuring out how to store and transport hydrogen.

"And by the way, I never mentioned the Hindenberg."

No, but on virtually every "hydrogen energy" thread, some ignorant jackass always does.

105 posted on 01/24/2005 3:44:52 AM PST by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: MainFrame65

Question about hydrogen by product.
As I was slipping and sliding to work something popped into my head.
Water is the by product of the Hydrogen fuel cell car.
What is the amount of water produced and where does it go?
If it is a large amount and it is dumped directly into the air as vapor or directlyt onto the roadway as water, won't this freeze and cause huge ice problems in colder climates.
Just wondering.


149 posted on 02/09/2005 10:51:26 AM PST by Holicheese (I just threw up in my own mouth)
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