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With Crackdown on Grade Inflation, Princeton Students Feeling the Heat
ap.tbo.com ^ | Jan 22, 2005 | Geoff Mulvihill

Posted on 01/22/2005 1:27:28 PM PST by foolscap

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To: Balding_Eagle


>"Wouldn't a very good teacher design the course so that the best students would be 'raised' above the average students?"


That course?....
It's CALLED: "GRADUATE SCHOOL."


61 posted on 01/22/2005 5:02:03 PM PST by 4Liberty (wages & revenues are price signals-- and some people [unions, subsidized cos] can't accept criticism)
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To: freedumb2003


>" They either get the Questions right or not. It is very possible for an entire class to ace every test, with a very good teacher."

...Right on, freedumb '03! EXACTLY...


62 posted on 01/22/2005 5:04:38 PM PST by 4Liberty (wages & revenues are price signals-- and some people [unions, subsidized cos] can't accept criticism)
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To: jude24
Typically (at least when I was in law school in the late 1970s), law school was the first time a lot of students found themselves with a 'C'. They'd had all A's through high school and college (thank you grade inflation even then -- it took off in the mid-60's with Vietnam) and then in law school they found themselves held to objective standards.

I generally agree with you that grades should reflect the level of mastery of the material rather than some 'rank order' within a particular class. For that reason, I have always thought that grading on a curve did a disservice to both the students and those who had to try to make sense of the grades.

For example, in curve grading, two teachers teaching an identical subject should come out with essentially similar grades -- even if in one class almost everyone demonstrated substantial mastery of the material and in the other the range was from abysmal ignorance of the material to mediocre mastery of the material. In such a world, how could you ever compare grades between different sections of the same course, or between different curricula (e.g. engineering vs. sociology), or between colleges. Clearly, you could not. All an "A" would mean was that you were among the better students in the class. But, "better" doesn't necessarily mean good, or even adequate.

Therefore, if grades have any useful meaning at all, it is to distinguish the level of mastery of the material taught. There will always be material that is easier for some people than others, and always material that is generally agreed to be hard (e.g. advanced mathematics) and material that is generally agreed to be easy (e.g. 'communications').

63 posted on 01/22/2005 5:13:57 PM PST by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo Arabiam Esse Delendam -- Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit)
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To: CatoRenasci


Amen. Go, Cato!!


64 posted on 01/22/2005 5:32:00 PM PST by 4Liberty (wages & revenues are price signals-- and some people [unions, subsidized cos] can't accept criticism)
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To: e p1uribus unum
If I had editorialized your comments, you could make that claim. As it is, I simply quoted you verbatum, pointing out that what you said was simply a twisting of my words.

Seesh, some people are so simple in their responses. Try again.

65 posted on 01/22/2005 5:57:28 PM PST by Balding_Eagle (God has blessed Republicans with really stupid enemies.)
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To: 4Liberty
It's CALLED: "GRADUATE SCHOOL."

The topic here is grade inflation, and the point I'm trying to make is that there are a few students in most classes who are far above average in their abilities, and or study habits. They deserve recognition for the results they provide.

Just to go on record here, with very few and small exceptions, that would have excluded me, and justly so.

The "we're ALL winners here" mentality should be reserved for the DUmmies.

66 posted on 01/22/2005 6:06:40 PM PST by Balding_Eagle (God has blessed Republicans with really stupid enemies.)
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To: foolscap

I went to a state school and worked my tail off to get good grades. In 8 semesters, I only made Dean's List the last 2. To make Dean's List you needed to rank in the top 20% of your college for that semester as well as get no grade lower than a B.

The school of education and the college of liberal arts were widely known to hand out As to anyone who showed up for class and made an "effort." That meant that the cutoff for Dean's List for that school was be between a 3.95 and a 4.0 every semester. I went to my required Philosophy class a total of three times and somehow still got an A- for the semester. Utterly pathetic and grade inflation was rampant.

I was in the school of engineering, and the Dean's List cutoff would range from a 3.4 to a 3.6. I somehow managed a 3.56 and a 3.72 my last 2 semesters, and before that always was between 3.0 and 3.3. It was much harder to earn the grades to make Dean's List in the school of engineering and the school of nursing, in particular.

It was significant enough that the school of engineering offered a free ride for grad school plus a stipend, for any graduate of their undergrad program who had a 2.8 GPA or better. For those who did their undergrad at another school, the requirement for such a good aid package was a 3.4!


67 posted on 01/22/2005 6:09:28 PM PST by Rubber_Duckie_27
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To: Balding_Eagle

OK. That's the second time today my post went over in exactly opposite the way I intended.

I liked your post and specifically admired the phrasing. That's why I quoted it.

It's clearly me at fault here since two separate people with different posting styles got the wrong message. I'm off for tonight.


68 posted on 01/22/2005 6:10:34 PM PST by e p1uribus unum
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To: e p1uribus unum

No problem. Thanks for the compliment too.


69 posted on 01/22/2005 6:40:59 PM PST by Balding_Eagle (God has blessed Republicans with really stupid enemies.)
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To: freespirited

"And the chance of this would be?"

Do you have any idea of what it takes to get into Princeton?


70 posted on 01/22/2005 8:50:27 PM PST by Max Combined
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To: Dustbunny

"that may be because of the generation that I came from."

Or it may be because you did not go to an elite college of have kids who went to an elite college.


71 posted on 01/22/2005 8:53:28 PM PST by Max Combined
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To: Max Combined
Do you have any idea of what it takes to get into Princeton?

I can't answer that question unless I know the applicant's sex and race and all the other BS factors that admissions offices consider these days that are unrelated to academic potential.

That said, I am well aware of how competitive Princeton is for those truly chosen for their academic promise.

72 posted on 01/22/2005 9:01:31 PM PST by freespirited
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To: Endeavor
"What's wrong with 90-100 = A; 80-89 = B; 70-79 = C; 60-69 = D and the rest is an "F?"

It sounds reasonable, but it would be possible for a professor to develop a test on the material where all the students scored between 90 and 100 and for the same teacher to develop another test where the same students all scored less than 60, depending on the difficulty of the questions.

That is why most teachers at tough school give tough tests and then use the mean and median of the tests to work backwards to arrive at a grading scale.
73 posted on 01/22/2005 9:07:01 PM PST by Max Combined
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To: jude24

"I'm surrounded by bright, intelligent students who work hard, know how to study, and want to be there."

And much more true is that at a law school like Yale or Harvard?


74 posted on 01/22/2005 9:08:35 PM PST by Max Combined
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To: foolscap
Now, each department can give A's to no more than 35 percent of its students each semester.

I don't support that.

If I was a teacher, I wouldn't grade inflate, but if they all earned A's, I'd give everyone an A. Same with D's.

You either know the answers and can back up your arguements or not.

75 posted on 01/22/2005 9:11:16 PM PST by Dan from Michigan ("We clearly screwed up on the communications," Detroit Mayor Kilpatrick - after caught in a lie.)
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To: Max Combined
Or it may be because you did not go to an elite college of have kids who went to an elite college.

LOL That too

76 posted on 01/23/2005 6:04:01 AM PST by Dustbunny (The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist)
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To: Balding_Eagle


No- I agree: We're NOT all "winners" here -- that's for socialists.

The recognition they deserve --- is to be immediately allowed to SKIP GRADES, and go directly to college, or, even Graduate School.


That was my point -- apparently, it was missed


77 posted on 01/23/2005 8:42:00 AM PST by 4Liberty (wages & revenues are price signals-- and some people [unions, subsidized cos] can't accept criticism)
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To: 4Liberty
The recognition they deserve --- is to be immediately allowed to SKIP GRADES, and go directly to college, or, even Graduate School.

That was my point -- apparently, it was missed

I did miss it. That's a good solution.

78 posted on 01/23/2005 9:50:27 AM PST by Balding_Eagle (God has blessed Republicans with really stupid enemies.)
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To: MVV

Informative article.........wonder how that will affect "F"?


79 posted on 01/23/2005 9:53:52 AM PST by mickie
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To: Mrs Mark; jude24
Grades don't always follow a bell-curve distribution. If you have a large group of intelligent, highly motivated students (which, presumably, anyway, is what Princeton students should be) and an objective exam, why is there no legitimate reason why the entire class couldn't legitimately earn all A's?...........jude24

What would you give the average student in this class?........Mrs Mark

That would depend on what the so-called "average" student scored.

Let's say that you have a class composed entirely of Type A personality geniuses that are all given the same extremely difficult, objective and fair test.

Let's say that one third of the class scores 98% on that test, one third of the class scores 97% on that test and one third of the class scores 96% on that test.

In such a case, every last student in that class deserves an "A" even though one half of them are "below average" in terms of that particular class.

The bottom line is that you have to consider not only the "Rank in Class" but also the quality of the competition.

80 posted on 01/23/2005 10:26:17 AM PST by Polybius
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