Posted on 01/22/2005 1:27:28 PM PST by foolscap
PRINCETON, N.J. (AP) - For students at Princeton University, final exams are even more stressful this year: The Ivy League school decided to make it harder to earn an A. The crackdown on high grades, part of a national battle against grade inflation at elite schools, has increased anxiety, and in some cases, made friendly students wonder whether they should offer study help to their competitors, er, classmates.
"Sometimes, your old high school mentality comes back to haunt you," said Monica Saumoy, recalling the cutthroat competition to get the grades she needed to get into Princeton.
As she studied for an organic chemistry exam in a coffee shop last week, the sophomore and aspiring doctor said she's doing her best to remain cooperative with her peers as they all aim for high grades. "You don't want to stop helping people," she said.
But they all know those A's aren't going to be as plentiful.
In a move students protested last year, Princeton became the first elite college to cap the number of A's that can be awarded.
Previously, there was no official limit to the number of A's handed out, and nearly half the grades in an average Princeton class have been A-pluses, A's or A-minuses. Now, each department can give A's to no more than 35 percent of its students each semester.
Princeton's effort is being monitored closely by other hallowed halls, and some expect to see a ripple effect in coming years.
At other Ivy League schools, the percentages of A's in undergraduates courses ranges from 44 percent to 55 percent, according to Princeton's Web site. At Harvard University, 91 percent of seniors graduated with some kind of honors in 2001.
If the reaction of Princeton students is any indication, limiting honors may mean sharper elbows. Princeton students - never exactly slackers - have been studying even harder this semester, said Tom Brown, executive secretary of the student government.
"You do feel you might be one of the ones they just cut off," said Natasha Gopaul, a senior at Princeton's Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs.
Grade inflation seems to date to the Vietnam War era, when many professors were reluctant to flunk students and consign them to the draft. Other factors made it snowball, including tuition increases that have convinced some students and parents that good grades are an entitlement.
The problem tends to feed on itself; if one department or school is doing it, others are under pressure to follow, or risk putting their students at a disadvantage.
Several schools have made efforts to rein in ballooning grade point averages. Starting this year, Harvard will limit the number of students who can graduate with honors. Northwestern University set up a committee to study grade inflation at its journalism school.
In 1997, Duke flirted with adopting a complex class-ranking system formula that would have made an A in a class taught by a professor who gives a lot of A's worth less than one in a class taught by a stingier faculty member.
Valen E. Johnson, the Duke professor who designed that system and went on to write the 2003 book, "Grade Inflation: A Crisis in College Education," doesn't like Princeton's new system.
"There's a danger that they're going to drive students away from classes perceived as being competitive," said Johnson, now a professor at the University of Texas' MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston.
Students are particularly worried about having fewer A's given out in upper-level classes.
"Especially if there are only five people in a class," said Jon Epstein, a junior computer science major from Cleveland, "It will create more competition to get A's."
Princeton officials will send letters to about 3,000 graduate schools and employers to explain the new grading standards - helping assuage students' fears about losing out to students at other elite schools where grades aren't being held in check.
Saumoy, the pre-med student, remains nervous. "I've heard that med schools don't really care what school you came from," she said.
Yeah.....but it's kind of like havinge your doctor order lab tests.....and then he comes back and tells you they were "normal." Well, I'd rather have "optimal" scores on my cholesterol and other tests.....just like I'd rather have a doc who was "OPTIMAL" (at the higher end of good) in Med School!
I had one class like that in grad school. About two thirds of the way through people presenting their final papers (most of the class's grade was for a project, with some of the grade coming from the midterm) the professor said "You are all doing good job. I think you will all get As". I don't know if everyone actually did get As. It was a very tough class. I put a lot more work into it that the typical class with a couple of exams for the grade.
Unbelievable, your logic escapes me but that may be because of the generation that I came from.
There are many different arbitrary grading schemes. Some would say that 70% correct is a C. Others would say it is a D or an F. If it is a test of brain surgery 70% is F in my book. It's completely arbitrary.
"C" is average. How could the whole class be above average. The teacher set the bar too low.
"A" = Way above average
"B" = Good, better than average
"C" = Average "
D" = Below average
"F" = Failure
So you are saying the average grade was above average ...
Calling the average grade an "A" is grade inflation defined.
I gave you data regarding my high school's grading policy. No logic involve.
I gave you more data regarding the impact of a grading quota system on graduate school access for students graduating for schools using that system.
What, specifically, is your problem?
Geeze, if you can't figure it out this country is in big trouble in another 20 years but since I will be gone by then it won't affect me.
If the entire class exhibits a superior mastery of the subject, that does not necessarily mean that the teacher set the bar too low. A bell-curve distribution only occurs with random samples. Given a class of qualified, hard-working, intelligent students who want to be there and a good professor teaching the class, there is no reason why the entire class cannot legitimatly earn an A.
IMHO Princeton's problem is that it's caring more and more about community politics and less and less about getting back to the hard work of teaching.
Quota system for getting A's? Lawsuits to follow.
Thank you !!
Here's the problem.
We use the word "average" in two ways. One is ordinary or unexceptional. The other is more mathematical.
You add the grades and divide by the number of exams. The result is call a "mean" if you're talking math, and an "average" in normal conversations.
Example of quota problem: on the department wide exams Prof A's 20 students got grades ranging from 89 to 98. Prof B's students ranged from 74-88. The 89 student gets a B, the 88 student gets an A.
Funy side note: I misspelled "would" as WOUD, you misspelled it as WOOD.
Top student
Well as long as these kids have a superior mastery of the subject I suppose, btw, must be nice to have a superior mastery of every subject encountered.
IMO, some how it seems that there're a lot of people around who couldn't hack in it school and would feel a lot better if they could justify their failures by some how proving that American schools were so much harder in their day. El Rushbo does a great job appealing to this group.
My wife's a career educator and I hold stock in private universities; so those of us in the 'ed-biz' care a lot about productivity and we don't really care about them who get a cheap thrill out of bashing American schools, American values, blah blah blah.
Top student
I am a horrible speller, and if I made a mistake I delighted that I could amuse you. Your mockery of me was a nice touch too. Thanks, it shows what a superior person you really are.
Your quota problem was a real brain twister, if the students are taking a department wide test, they should be graded as a group and not by professor.
Adding numbers up and dividing by the number of numbers is called the average in math. "Mean" is a statistical term. I'm sure that is what you meant.
Our grand daughter started college, accounting. Her first year she was studying what we were taught in 10th grade. This really upset me as I did not realize how badly the libs had almost crippled our education system.
Wow, this is great! The more time these guys spend studying, the less time they will have to protest!
It must be working because the main complaint of the dems has been 'funding'.
Yes, absolutely, it IS possible to have students compete against the subject knowledge, rather than each other.
That's how I run MY college classes. They are competing against a fixed amount of MATERIAL -- not each other.
If all students can remember and master the basic formulas, and the definitions of terms, and the general essay responses I require they master - etc., -- they'll get an "A."
It is a very structured principles course, and -- they DO learn the basics, and are able to perform and express intelligent opinions, in the upper division courses, BECAUSE I have drilled them on the 'basics' -- the "terms & tools," as I call it -- of our field (economics).
I get a "bimodal" grade curve -- 1/3 get A's, and 1/3 get F's.
I am very strict about cheating too -- and make them put their cell camera phones AWAY, and etc., too.
Pam in Los Angeles
I agree -- "C" does not mean "average" STUDENT, it means Average mastery of the MATERIAL, taught.
If people get ~70 points on my tests, and have only mastered ~70% of the Graphs and concepts -- they get a grade of C.
If everybody -- all students - master 70 to 79% of the material -- then they ALL get C's. My grade "curve" would be: all C's.
If everybody in my class scores below 60% (59% or less), they all get F's.
That's how I run my classes
....No exceptions, "social promotions," or etc.
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