Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Overcoming the Constraints of Sovereignty
Tech Central Station ^ | January 22, 2005 | Sidney Goldberg

Posted on 01/21/2005 6:42:19 PM PST by quidnunc

A chief bugaboo in today's political discourse, and one that President Bush addressed forthrightly in his second inaugural speech, is the concept of sovereignty, a notion that has been analyzed since Hugo Grotius, the Dutch 17th century philosopher. Grotius set the stage for centuries of debate on international law, proclaiming, for example, that there are "open seas" over which nations may not make sovereign claims. He also set forth rules on when nations can use military force, usually in self-defense.

A chief complaint against the Bush inaugural speech is that he seems to ignore the constraints of sovereignty, which prevent the United States from encroaching on the legitimacy of even the most evil of regimes and proclaims their borders sacrosanct.

But sovereignty often has nothing to do with ethics and one can respect sovereignty and commit ethical crimes in doing so. Was it ethical to abide by the sovereignty of Sudan while it was committing genocide? Is it ethical for us to sit on our hands while millions of Africans are maimed or slaughtered?

Remember the movies in which a gang of criminals would rob a bank and then outrace the county police to the border of another county, cross the border, and leave the county police fuming in frustration because their authority prevailed only in their own county? I used to think this was the most stupid situation from an ethical point of view, even though the law was being upheld.

-snip-

(Excerpt) Read more at techcentralstation.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Philosophy; Politics/Elections; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: bushdoctrine; geopolitics; inauguraladdress; sovereignty; w2

1 posted on 01/21/2005 6:42:20 PM PST by quidnunc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe; Corin Stormhands; Revelation 911; Starwind; Buggman; fortheDeclaration; jude24; ...
the concept of sovereignty, a notion that has been analyzed since Hugo Grotius, the Dutch 17th century philosopher. Grotius set the stage for centuries of debate on international law,

Where are those Hugo Grotius Flame Retardant Underroos?

:>)

2 posted on 01/21/2005 6:47:15 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: quidnunc
Only a legitimate government has a right to a claim of sovereignty. All legitimate government is based on the consent of the governed.
3 posted on 01/21/2005 7:07:51 PM PST by Libertarianize the GOP (Make all taxes truly voluntary)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: xzins; Corin Stormhands; Revelation 911; Starwind; Buggman; fortheDeclaration; jude24
Where are those Hugo Grotius Flame Retardant Underroos?

Who better to understand the concept of limited sovereignty than a Remonstanter, or whatever they're called?

Ok, maybe now I'd better go find those asbestos undergarments.

4 posted on 01/21/2005 7:48:07 PM PST by P-Marlowe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Libertarianize the GOP

I think you're talking about popular sovereignty, as opposed to absolute sovereignty. The latter is based on the entity's ability to assert itself to the exclusion of any competitors.


5 posted on 01/21/2005 7:59:28 PM PST by PTBarnum (Go To: APTTAX.COM)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe

There was a time when our own states had soverignty. And the Federal government did not. But that was when it was a Federal and not a general government.


6 posted on 01/21/2005 8:01:08 PM PST by AntiBurr ("I have sworn on the altar of God eternal hostility against ...Tyranny over the mind of Man.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: PTBarnum

And which is this article discussing?


7 posted on 01/21/2005 8:04:01 PM PST by Libertarianize the GOP (Make all taxes truly voluntary)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Libertarianize the GOP; xzins

The idea of sovereignty is best expressed using the business end of a gun.


8 posted on 01/21/2005 8:09:11 PM PST by P-Marlowe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Libertarianize the GOP
Both. What I'm saying is your concept of legitimate sovereignty, as Thomas Jefferson proposed: "... deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..." is a subset of the concept of sovereignty. It is a value-neutral concept that only speaks to the issue of power; good, bad, or otherwise.
9 posted on 01/21/2005 8:29:58 PM PST by PTBarnum (Go To: APTTAX.COM)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: PTBarnum

Opposition to the Iraq war is not based on Saddam's power to oppose American will. The claim to sovereignty is based entirely on the fact that he controlled Iraq for a few years and that control entitled him to continued sovereignty. A position that is absurd.


10 posted on 01/21/2005 8:38:23 PM PST by Libertarianize the GOP (Make all taxes truly voluntary)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: quidnunc
According to me:

Sovereignty rests with the people. When they delegate sovereignty to their consensual government, then the state have the sovereignty. When the government is not consensual, the so called state sovereignty is only a cover for tyranny. If we have means to help, we should.
11 posted on 01/21/2005 8:39:32 PM PST by Tolik
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Libertarianize the GOP
Only a legitimate government has a right to a claim of sovereignty. All legitimate government is based on the consent of the governed.

Amen.

12 posted on 01/22/2005 2:34:54 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Libertarianize the GOP

I agree. I'm just clarifying the definition of sovereignty. Saddam and company are no longer sovereign since they were not able to hold onto power in the face of the coalition that removed them, i.e., "regime change". Those opposed to the war apparently don't understand the correct definition of sovereignty when they claim our removal of Saddam was "illegal". Legality applies to citizens of a sovereign power. The sovereign has unrestricted rights, until stopped by another power. The lefties would have us believe that the UN is somehow sovereign and that the US and other nations are legally bound to it. Not so. It's just an organization with freely participating member nations. Sorry, no world government yet.


13 posted on 01/22/2005 5:30:20 PM PST by PTBarnum (Go To: APTTAX.COM)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson