Posted on 01/21/2005 11:18:30 AM PST by blasater1960
....Who would thought that a child of the 60's culture, would grow up to become not only president, but the best predident the State of Israel would ever have.....
(Excerpt) Read more at deprogramprogram.com ...
You don't get it!
Do you still have September 10, 2001 as your current calendar page? The rest of us saw the celebrations when the Towers came down. When September 11 hits your planet, let us know how you feel about it. If you're not too busy partying.
fyi
I spent the first anniversery of 9-11 getting ready to deploy to Kuwait after having returned from Afghanistan in July
I spent the second anniversery of 9-11 in Kuwait having just left Baghdad a week before.
I spent the last 9-11 at home having redeployed from Kuwait - with a lot of trips to Iraq, in July
And you. You sit your ass at a keyboard and tell me that I'm stuck in 9-10. Boy don't I wish.
Never mind. The subject is Israel - I'm supposed to disengage my brain and swallow everything they say without question.
You can if you want to Mr Superpatriot. Sit your lard ass down and open another bag of chips, get comfortable, and tell me how the State of Israel is critical to US foreign policy.
I'll give you an even easier one. Name one single thing the State of Israel does to enhance the position of the US in the world.
What are the benefits to the United States that we derive from our 40(+)years of unquestioning and unconditional support of the State of Israel?
This otta be good.
Scares?? Not at all, quite the opposite. More and more people are seeing the Arab-Israeli conflict for what it is. An attempt by Arab terrorists, like arafat, to exterminate the Jewish State by terror and bit-by-bit negotiation. They are hardly distinguishable from the vile filth that behead people in Iraq. And people are waking up to that FACT.
"Because of these two factors Israel is now invulnerable to conventional military attack..."
You are joking right?? Who cares about Arab tanks! ! A sovereign Pal state, with its own airspace would leave Israels major cities vulnerable to missile attack within seconds from launch. Hardly a secure senario. The stupid Arabs dont care about retaliation as long as they can take-out a few thousand Jews at a pop. Shahids remember? These animals dont even love their own children enough to care what would happen to them.
"The land you took..."
Oh, you actually mean WON in a defensive war, right?
"As long as you keep apartheid going..."
This is exactly what the Arabs are trying to get people to think. Apparently you have FALLEN for it. This is SOOO stupid. If the Arabs wanted to help themselves, all the Arab oil rich countries could invest billions per year in infrastructure and economic development but they dont do they?? Why? SO, the world can see them living in squalor and blame it on the Joooos. What did arafat do with his billions huh? Help his poor? build schools or universities?? He stole it! These so-called refugee camps are Arab maintained ghettos, just to give Israel a black eye.
"..you'd rather lose 500 people a year.."
Not me pal, I would beat them once and for all, offer them to live in peace in Jordan or within Israel if they choose to live disarmed and peacefully. The roving gangs in the west bak and gaza will NEVER give up peacefully to end their quest of the distruction of Israel and must be defeated militarily. Sad but true.
Israel is the only democracy in the middle east. The Arabs with the most rights in the middle east are......Israeli arabs!!
Israel projects military power, without which, Sadam would have had the bomb by now. Israel has balanced the Arab military equation quite well for fifty years.
Israel is the seat of some of the most advanced technology in the world, in cooperation with the US that benefits the whole world, in science, medicine, and advanced military hardware.
Come on Dude, where are you getting your information?? The Nation magazine?? Try to honestly look at the historical and current facts!
The only reason most Arab nations went to the Soviet Bloc for weapons was that Israel got theirs from the west.
If Israel had never come into existance none of the "Balancing" would have been necessary.
I know my history exceedingly well. The arab world had a relatively good opinion of the US after the Suez crisis of 1956.
Things only started going south for us really in 1967
And oh, by the way. Until 1983 the Israelis held the record for the most Americans killed by a foreign power in the Middle East
Israel projects military power - to help Israel. I never saw Israeli troops in Somalia, or the Balkans, or anywhere else we committed people
We spend billions a year for a state that we don't control - whose policies alienate a quarter of the worlds population. We are seen as Israel's puppet master (would that this were true) and take all of the emnity for zero benefit. Where do we, the US, have a dog in this fight?
So tell me again, How does Israel help the US strategically?
Not true. It is inconceivable that we would not want a US-Western world friendly democracy on the doorstep of the worlds oil supplies. I recall when the former Soviet Union wanted to control the worlds oil supply. There are many scenarios then and in the future (China) where oil supply could require a response of such magnitude, that operations involving the State of Israel would be vital. Iran is also a threat to more than just Israel. Should we take out Irans nuke capability, Israel will be flying sorties as well, you can bet on it.
"Things only started going south for us really in 1967"
Oh, when we supported Israel (very little) against Arab aggression.
"I never saw Israeli troops in Somalia, or the Balkans.."
Oh and where were the Arabs you support?? Didnt see them there. On the contrary, Arabs have been engaging in genocide on the African continent and in the middle east. Funny, No Israeli genocide. But you would rather have us care what the Arabs think?
"We are seen as Israel's puppet master.."
By Arab nations who are ruled by tyrants, oppress their people, deny the most basic of human rights, commit genocide on sometimes their own people as well as neighbors, deny women basic rights, deny freedom of speech, religion and whose culture hasn't advanced beyond the 14th century. The tyrants maintain control of the Arab street by diversionary hatred of Israel. 1/4 of the world hates us because they live in oppression. So, this is no reason to bend over for them. GWB is right, freedom is the correct prescription.
{If Israel had never come into existance none of the "Balancing" would have been necessary. }
At least you are more honest than Abu Mazen about your intentions. Arab world opinion of the United States is only based on the existence of Israel in so much as it represents America's interests in the Arabian region of influence. You are looking for a strategic reason and base your argument on the fact that Israeli troops have not been deployed with American troops. That is at least until recently. It was widely reported that Israeli special forces were side by side with American special forces prior to the full scale invasion of Iraq. But the argument is a red herring. American forces have never been deployed in a war in which Israel was fighting either. Does that mean the US isn't a friend of Israel? This borders on stupidity, no offense.
American strategic interests are defined by the American people for your information. The American people have decided by their ballots that Israel is important. That is what matters. It is a matter of preference. Most Americans recognize that Israel represents THEIR values in a part of the world where slavery is condoned, women are abused at the will of their husbands who they had little choice in marrying to start with, mutilate female children, leaving the male children to learn to blow up for muslim paradise and hate generally replaces love. Islam as submission is a repressive state of affairs for everyone except the "strategically" empowered. To say that the arab islamic world needed Israel to carry on its war with the west which began with Mohammed himself {YSh}is contrary to your self perceived notion of being a student of history. Jihadists from the beginning have died in the name of islamic killing. The victims have been mostly non-muslims (black muslims however have also been targets). Arabic gave us the word "assassin" as Shai has pointed out originating with islamic murder of christians during the crusades ". http://www.fun-with-words.com/etym_example.html.
Jews and others living the arab muslim world long before Israel came into existence were certainly not treated in brotherly love. Again, no need for a Jewish state. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Jews_in_Arab_lands_(gen).html
But mostly, Americans have a keen sense of justice, probably because the proportion of G-d fearing religious people in America far outstrips the remainder of the western world. That means, even if they do not have a working knowledge of the history pointed out here they sense a snake in the grass without having to see it.
Since this post started with Deprogram Program, with apologies to Shai, I am posting a partial transcript below from the show entitled "Hamites", September 5, 2004.
The Torah MiSinai is about the promise to Avraham of what was known in his
generation - with his ancestor Shem still alive - as the Land of Canaan.
The Holy One Blessed be He in His divine Torah introduces the reader to
Abraham with a few words at the end of Chapter 11 but then beginning with Chapter 12,
verse 1, we meet this Avraham (still Avram at that point) who in the first verse is told he
was going to be given a land which turned out to be the Land of the Canaanites, where
there are several peoples called Canaanites, whom the Holy One Blessed Be He wants
Abraham to dispossess.
Now, G-d Almighty of course could dispossess them in the wink of an eye, but
then there would be no story. No evolution, no growth of the species. In his infinite
wisdom that passes understanding, He wants the seed of Avraham, four hundred years in
the future, to do the dispossessing.
Avraham, descendant of Shem ben Noah, is awarded this goodly land, and also is
charged with sending out these Canaanites, these descendants of Canaan ben Ham, and
why? Well, the Torah miSinai tells us that these Canaanites were just about the worst
examples of humanity around: idol-worshippers, sexual deviants who sacrificed their
children to their idols, who sacrificed children to their conception of god. Perhaps one of
the lessons here that liberals and communists most certainly do not like is that there are
differences between peoples. Not all peoples are of equal worth and virtue, and some
peoples are so low-level their absence would be a blessing. HaShem wanted the
descendants of Shem to live in His holy land. He did not want the Canaanites and other
descendants of Ham to be here.
Ham means hot, as in hot-blooded/hot-headed, a slave of his emotions, not a
master of them.
And the Torah, in its divine, literary genius, also does not just coincidently show
us the similarity between the name Ham and the sin - the fatal sin of mankind - for
which the Almighty chose to destroy the world: hamas.
And surely it is no coincidence, that in the Arabic language, a cognate of Hebrew,
hamas is a word that also appears only in valuation as the reverse of the Hebrew term. In
the Bible hamas is the worst feature of the human personality; unbridled violence that
destroys the world. In Islam, the word is a virtue translated as “zeal” or “enthusiasm,”
i.e., dare one say it, unbridled fanaticism.
Hamas today is the name of that Nazi-like murder cult which as an acronym was
chosen in 1988 because it can stand for Harakat al-Muqqauwama al-Islamiya meaning
Islamic Resistance Organization, meaning resistance to Jewish freedom, and also because
it is an Islamic virtue to be zealous for Allah and his jihad.
In a nutshell, for the children of Israel, hamas is the sin that destroys the world; it
conjures up violence and injustice. But for the children of Ishmael, son of Hagar,
daughter of Egypt, son of Ham, it is among the highest religious virtues.
So, from the way yours truly sees things, these what we call Arabs today, these
Ishmaelites, are in truth homicidal Hamites, who bear the personality and deficits of
Ham, with his disrespect for his father, his homosexual perversion; this slave of
dictators, men like Saddam Hussein and Yasser Arafat, monstrous slaves themselves of
their own drives, pleasures and urges.
The maniacs who blew up those two buses in Beersheva - the border town
between Abraham and the Philistines - and those Chechens supported by more Muslim
maniacs for whom not life but death is the ultimate pleasure, are Hamites.
As the Arabs stole the Jewish narrative of being the legitimate owners of this land
driven into pitiable exile, aching to come home, so they stole the term Semite. For
decades jackals like Arafat have said “we cannot be antisemites because we too are
Semites,” when that is just more of their lies and larceny. Jewish law holds that you
belong to the Jewish people because of your mother, daughter of Sarah, not Hagar.
Hagar in the Torah also marries off her son to another Egyptian, Genesis chapter
21, verse 21, so it’s not right to hold that Ishmael, the son of a Hamitic woman and the
husband of a Hamitic woman passes on to his descendants the legacy of Shem.
These Arabs and their wild Chechen brothers are Hamites who bear the heritage
of their eponymous ancestor who was born before the Flood, and seems to have carried
over into the post-Flood world just about the worst character traits man is capable of.
From Ham to Hamas to Beersheva and Iraq and Saudi Arabia where they
regularly chop off hands and heads, to that bloodbath last Friday in Russia, the Hamites
of this world are alive and at war with the seed of Shem and Japhet.
Pakistani M48 tanks helped rescue the Rangers and 10th Mountain Division soldiers were carried in Malaysian APCs
The Jordanians and Pakistanis sent troops to the Balkans and the UAE deployed a helicopter lift battalion to Kosovo
If the arab nations hadn't needed the Soviets as a source of weapons the Russians would never have gotten a look in. The Russian influence in the area was zero before the creation of the State of Israel. Athiest communism was more of an anethema to Moslems than other religions. What makes you think Russian influence would have been any greater in the second half of the 20th century had Israel not existed.
I doubt seriously that Israel would be flying any sorties against Iran. To get there they have to fly over Turkey, Saudi or Iraq. I don't see the first two giving permission (their air forces would contest any overflight) and we own Iraqi airspace. If you flew over Iraq it would mean we (the US) acquiesced to it and that would probably cost us basing in Arab countries we badly need to prosecute our war
As for "Arab aggression" I believe that Israel started the 1967 war, and the 1956 war for that matter
And I'm sure that the state of Israel had all sorts of plans to power project to the Gulf to protect energy supplies on behalf of the US and the west during the cold war...yep, sure I am.
Look guy let me clarify my position. Whether Israel survives or not is a matter of complete indifference to me. Fight your neighbors forever, make peace with them or kill them all.
Strategically you are a dead loss for the United States. We get nothing out of you, No bases, no allies in war, no help diplomatically because you're kryptonite to most of the world.
We have taken insane strategic risks for you (denuding our divisions in europe in 1973 to make up your losses)
Those arab "Untermenschen" you so froth at the mouth about are important to the US national strategy. Who knows how far we might have brought them or helped them towards some kind of more representitive democracy if it hadn't been for the fact that none of them trust us because of you
Get them to back UN resolutions? - "What about the resolutions to get Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories?" Always gets thrown in our faces
You'd set the whole middle east on fire as long as you can settle the west bank and keep Jerusulam
And we're tied to you.
We need to cut the cord. Save about 4 billion a year. Establish normal diplomatic relations. That's it. We're your enabler. We need to stop
It won't change much initially, but it would be a start
You wrote: "Strategically you are a dead loss for the United States. We get nothing out of you, No bases, no allies in war, no help diplomatically because you're kryptonite to most of the world."
The US uses its alliance and influence with Israel to diplomatic advantage when dealing with the Arab states, and the even the EU. To the extent the US is able to gain cooperation with Arab governments it is precisely because the US is perceived to have influence with and on Israel. Otherwise, the US would have one large "carrot" less to offer the Arab states.
Besides diplomatic benefit, the US and Israel have an extension bi-lateral joint military relationship and co-develop military programs to each countries benefit.
The aid the US sends Israel is mostly in the form of monetary credits that Israel must use to purchase US made military hardware, which support US industry and jobs.
Israel provides valuable intelligence to the US since its networks in the Middle East are much deeper than anything the US has developed, especially since the Clinton adminstration ended funding for most of the on the ground operations run by the CIA.
But because of the need for the US to build working relationships with the Arab and Muslim states, it cannot be seen as standing shoulder to shoulder with Israel in an overt manner, as result, the benefit of the US-Israel relationship is purposely not stressed.
You may think whatever you wish, but it is no accidnet that every US adminstration since 1949 has found Israel, even with all its warts, a net benefit for the US national interests.
Every year a large majority of Congress formally expresses the its support of Israel. This cannot be explained by the idea that the so-called "Jewish lobby" unduly influences US foreign policy to America's detrement.
Or do you think the US government is so easily duped?
Israel's best interests are in our best interests. It's mind boggling you don't know that.
ping
Brilliant response...Well done
With Arab armies massing, a strike of preemption that was entirely the right thing to do.
"Fight your neighbors forever, make peace with them or kill them all..."
You imply that it is incumbent upon Israel to make this happen. It is the Arab states that have attacked Israel. How many have even recognized Israels right to exist? It is incumbent upon the Arab states to live in peace with Israel a stop trying to find ways of destroying her.
"Those arab "Untermenschen" you so froth at the mouth about are important to the US national strategy.."
I said the Arab suicide-homicide bombers, who are popular among the Arab death cultists, are in fact sub-human (and your attempt at moral equivalency with Hitler is offensive). Nobody with any ability to discern morality would disagree. Furthermore, we should never sacrifice Israel at the alter of Arab opinion. We will always be hated by the Arab street unless we help them destroy Israel.
"What about the resolutions to get Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.."
Yes, the UN is Anti-Israel and Anti-jew, this is nothing new. Again, it is not occupied territory. The US in Iraq is occupied territory. Israel in Judea and Samaria, is disputed territory.
Look, I think we are about to go round and round here. I would only say, when you compare the State of Israel with ANY arab state, Israel is superior in all respects. I dont care what the Arab street thinks since they live in a culture of death and corruption, encouraged and indoctrinated by an evil Arab tyrany at the head of their governments. Would you prefer, that Israel look like Syria? How many Lebanese and fellow Syrians have be murdered by Assad(father and Son) and his henchmen? Saudi Arabia a country run like the Mafia? Or even Qatar, your name sake, that even the liberal US State Department says the following:
The U.S. State Department, in its annual Country Reports on Human Rights Practices published in February 2000, noted that Qatar "does not allow political demonstrations." The report further noted that Qatar "severely limits freedom of association" and "does not allow political parties or membership in international professional organizations critical of the Government or of any other Arab government." It also reported that security forces monitor the activities of private social, sports, trade, professional, and cultural societies.
There are other issues of concern as well. Qatar is not a party to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the international treaty that guarantees basic freedoms of expression, assembly and association and due process protections. Qatar also is not a signatory to the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, nor to any other bilateral or multilateral consular accord, which raises most serious issues in cases of detention of foreign nationals.
Israel is head and shoulders above all Arab states and is worthy of the support of the US. If I were you, I would be ranting against the Arab states to aspire to obtain a culture worthy of the 21st century and quit kissing-up to the the polluted arab streets. EOM
thank you....
BTW..regarding blaming Israel for Soviet influence with the arabs, if my history is correct, it was Israel's refusal to have closer relations with the USSR which led the USSR to approach the arab states in a cold war effort to confront the US and the west. The USSR recognized Israeli independence almost immediately after its declaration but Israel backed away from a strategic relationship.
http://countrystudies.us/israel/109.htm
it is important, as you have pointed out to remind our friend that judea and samaria, while taken legally in a defensive war is only part of the justification for Israeli sovereignty on this land. There is no arab tradition of living in these lands. There was never a palestine in history where arabs had a state independant or otherwise. http://www.masada2000.org/. the stealing of this land by arabians is the continuation of the epic struggle of islam versus western civilization's progenitors, and more importantly the people chosen by the creator to dwell in this land, the Jewish people.
welcome aboard newbie.... :)
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