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Skipper of submarine San Francisco relieved of command
Navy Times | 1/20/5 | William H. McMichael

Posted on 01/20/2005 7:33:30 AM PST by SmithL

Commander Mooney has been reassigned.


TOPICS: Front Page News; Government
KEYWORDS: cmdrmooney; submarine; usn; usssanfrancisco
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To: Red Badger
If in fact the mount was not charted, then the NAVY was negligent in not providing up to date maps. How many other un-charted mounts are there?

Negligent is too strong a word. To really accurately map the sea floor you need to physically sail over the entire surface with a survey ship. I believe we have 7-8 of those and they're never going to map the entire surface of the seafloor in the entire world.

61 posted on 01/20/2005 8:17:41 AM PST by Strategerist
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To: Red Badger; shubi

The commander is always responsible whether on air or ground. If GI Joe loses his rifle, it's his commander whose career is ruined.

Even worse in the navy. Those ships cost far more than M16's.

Besides, there's something about luck, divine providence, something esoteric that follows those who make it to the top. Is that caused by effort, attention to detail, good fortune.....who cares? It follows these leaders and doesn't follow these.

Fair or not, in a world of otherwise perfect people you decide based on any discriminator that you can.


62 posted on 01/20/2005 8:17:42 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: Red Badger

The Navy doesn't want incompetent OR UNLUCKY men in charge of expensive vessels.


63 posted on 01/20/2005 8:19:11 AM PST by expatpat
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To: brownsfan
The Captain and crew were responsible and acted appropriately by rescuing themselves and returning to Guam.

Let the Navy inquiry run its course.

64 posted on 01/20/2005 8:20:53 AM PST by BIGLOOK (I once opposed keelhauling but have recently come to my senses.)
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To: mortal19440
Was his Sonar operational? If it was, why didn't the Operator see the mount?

There are two kinds of sonar. The kind you're thinking of is active sonar; it sends out pings that bounce back. Submarines basically NEVER use it.

The other kind is passive sonar. That's simply listening to noise. Seamounts don't make any noise so you can't "see" them.

There's a separate fathometer (basically a depth finder) apparently, but it also is rarely used because it makes noise and gives away your position. If the face of the seamount was very steep it wouldn't really have helped.

65 posted on 01/20/2005 8:21:07 AM PST by Strategerist
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To: Red Badger
Wasn't the same reason behind hitting the Chinese embassy in Belgrade in 1999? Failure to update military maps?

It's those tiny, unglamorous details like maps, o-rings, and insulation foam that don't get funded but prove disastrous.

66 posted on 01/20/2005 8:21:17 AM PST by pierrem15
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To: llevrok

"Pls answer a question - a sub is a boat and a frigate is a ship. What's the difference and why?"

The only explaination I ever heard was that a ship has expansion joints. These joints allow the ship to flex when it spans 2 waves. A boat is a rigid frame. Thus a small vessel, (PT boat, and life boat), is a boat, as well as a large, rigid, sub. A frigate, destroyer, cruiser, etc. is a ship.

USN 1977-1981


67 posted on 01/20/2005 8:21:24 AM PST by brownsfan (Post No Bills)
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To: Red Badger

It doesn't matter if Jesus Christ the Righteous is Skipper; if you hit something with your boat, your career is over.

Of course, having a collision with a Chicom submarine and then trying to pass it off as an unknown mountain is also a real howler, but some things must be done for the Good of the Service.

Be Seeing You,

Chris

68 posted on 01/20/2005 8:22:38 AM PST by section9 (Major Motoko Kusanagi says, "Jesus is Coming. Everybody look busy...")
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To: SampleMan

All I know is that I'd hate to be on the recieving end of any of these US vessel's anger. Great ships/boats, even greater sailors and officers.


69 posted on 01/20/2005 8:24:07 AM PST by llevrok (Straight Guy with a martini)
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To: SmithL

I think people are reacting to this prematurely. He's relieved until the investigation completes as a matter of course, and if no mistakes were made by him nor by people under him, then he will be returned to duty.
Right? Of course the captain is held responsible for everything that happens on his ship, but there's nothing to hold him responsible for if mistakes were not made.


70 posted on 01/20/2005 8:24:41 AM PST by Mount Athos
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To: Strategerist
Many? Question is if there were ANY. Traveling Guam-Brisbane is not exactly routine for nuclear subs.

It's not? Better tell the Navy. They say it is routine.

I suspect this may have been the first time this route was traveled by a submarine that deep.

FYI, Guam is homeport to several subs and home-away-from-home for others. Brisbane is a routine liberty port.

71 posted on 01/20/2005 8:24:53 AM PST by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: Richard Kimball

Why the medal? Kennedy's dad was a corrupt power in the US, the skipper's dad is not.


72 posted on 01/20/2005 8:27:39 AM PST by llevrok (Straight Guy with a martini)
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To: SampleMan; llevrok

"Try coming up with a good rule for separating Frigates from Destroyers and Destroyers from Cruisers."

I'm an old timer, but I'll try. First, I think the # of screws is a factor: Frigate - 1, Destroyer - 2, Cruiser - 4. And, the role of the ship. If you think Carrier group, closest in is the Cruiser, heavily armed for AA. Next out, Destroyer, mix of AA and AS. Fartherst out, the Frigate, many Frigates have their own AS helicopter. Frigates are lightly armed for AA.

That's what I knew at one time. Not sure how or if it's changed.


73 posted on 01/20/2005 8:28:40 AM PST by brownsfan (Post No Bills)
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To: WildTurkey

Nuclear Subs have only been based at Guam since 2002.

Relative to the North Atlantic, the GIUK gaps, North Pacific, the route has to be a very rarely traveled route as nuclear submarines go.

It's certainly mapped far less well.


74 posted on 01/20/2005 8:30:12 AM PST by Strategerist
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To: llevrok

Well I always heard it like this, a ship can carry a boat and a boat can't carry a ship.


75 posted on 01/20/2005 8:31:00 AM PST by razorback-bert
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To: An Old Marine
If the charts are wrong that may keep him from facing criminal charges (that's for a review board or a courts martial to decide, and we will never know all of the facts). Even if he doesn't face criminal negligence or recklessness charges, the fact that a man died as a result of this accident means that his career is finished. There's just no way to sugarcoat something like that on a fitness report.
76 posted on 01/20/2005 8:31:39 AM PST by CFC__VRWC
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To: Piquaboy
Teddy Kennedy was not relieved of his command when he sunk the USS Submarine Oldsmobile.

Wasn't that vessel officially commissioned the "MSS Rosemobile"

77 posted on 01/20/2005 8:33:21 AM PST by Hat-Trick (Do you trust a government that cannot trust you with guns?)
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To: WildTurkey

My dad was in the Navy for 30 years, but not on subs. I was an Army officer for four years after college. What many here may not realize is that the word "relieved" means something far different in the Navy than it does in the Army. in the Army, it means, your career is screwed. In the Navy, it simply means you've been reassigned from a command position and has neither a positive or negative connotation.


78 posted on 01/20/2005 8:33:53 AM PST by connectthedots
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To: edcoil

Ouch! Truly another demonstration of "your way, my way, and the Navy way".


79 posted on 01/20/2005 8:35:07 AM PST by Hat-Trick (Do you trust a government that cannot trust you with guns?)
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To: llevrok
a sub is a boat and a frigate is a shi

Only terminology and custom. The submarine service long ago chose to differentiate themselves from the surface fleet with a handful of terms. The fleet air arm does the same thing in its own way.

80 posted on 01/20/2005 8:35:51 AM PST by An Old Marine (Freedom isn't Free)
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