NYC: Smokers Who Buy Online Need To Pay Up

CBS 2 online and television ^ | 1/13/05 | CBS 2 Marsha Kramer Reports

[HoggerFox]

No, cigs4cheap.com was not based in New York at all, it was based in Virginia. From Andy's understanding (he's not positive), all Virginia based online cigarette retail sites were subpoenaed, he believes this because he ordered from another place called cig-outlet.com but not cigs4cheap.com to his knowledge. cig-outlet.com hasn't been mentioned in the news but they had to have subpoenaed them to get the customer list and that's how they got Andrew Hoffer's name. We think they went after all sites besides the American Indians since they are tax exempt and don't disclose information ever to anyone or agency, they don't have to either apparently. I'm almost positive everyone can order their cigarettes from the American Indian's via the internet and have no problem at all, the government can't touch them. When this is all over, I guess the American Indians will get all the customers who intentionally want cheaper prices on cigs, just my guess.

[SheLion]

“...and it's still the seller's responsibility to collect....”  

This is yet another slap in the face to our constitution.  Amendment XIII, Section 1 states:  “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist in the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”

Requiring that businesses collect sales tax is involuntary servitude.  The amendment doesn’t specify whether or not one gets paid for the “servitude” but I believe it makes the distinction when it addresses both slavery and servitude.  Why are we not adhering to our constitution?

[SheLion]

No, cigs4cheap.com was not based in New York at all, it was based in Virginia. From Andy's understanding (he's not positive), all Virginia based online cigarette retail sites were subpoenaed, he believes this because he ordered from another place called cig-outlet.com but not cigs4cheap.com to his knowledge.

Tell Andy to look for and save his receipts.  I hope he still has them.  From what I am finding out, it is the seller's responsibility to collect the state sales tax.

I know when I order over the phone clothing, or whatever, sometimes, but not ALWAYS, the sales person will tack on the Maine sales tax.  So, I really believe it's up to the seller to tack that tax on, and NOT the buyer.

If anyone approaches him, tell him to play dumb, and say "The seller collected the taxes.  You mean they didn't turn them in?"

[HoggerFox]

This is un-Constitutional, from what you've wrote too I agree. Plus, I'm not sure if it's your civil rights or what is being violated when the state looks into your internet purchases, credit card purchases and especially what you have had delivered to your house via every method possible. The NY dept. of finance says in the letter they KNOW the 67 cartons were delivered so that means not only did they obtain his name from one of these online companies in court but they know how many reached our home at what dates. That's creepy and I didn't know your privacy can be so invaded like that, this isn't like a murder or some kind of serious crime that was being investigated. Just a hard working guy (7 days a week) who wants to enjoy an unusual brand of cigs and could only find them online which happened to be out of state. You all have great points about taxing steak, candy, etc... Don't doubt stuff like that won't happen. The invasion of our privacy is the worst part of this which is why the news reporters wanted this story badly. Also, I have been doing a lot of reasearch and one question I get the same answer to. THE RETAILER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR CHARGING ANY SALES TAX. You don't go after the buyers, it's insane. Currently it's been 3 days now of reporters calling here and coming over and right now as I type, Andy is on the phone with the Los Angeles Times who just called us wanting a phone interview. I told him to come on here when he can after he gets off the phone, to type some things since he's a great writer and I'm not so great at writing...lol. It's nice to see everyone realizing how serious this is and how it's not about smoking, it's about big brother more than anything else. Whoever read the book "1984" must be pretty shooken up right now. There's a part in the book about how you have to get up each morning and you're in front of cameras in your home and are made to do exercise and keep a certain fitness level. One of you mentioned something like that in your post and it reminded me of the book 1984.

[SheLion]

That is insane.

They must have nailed the company for their customer data base is all I can figure. But it is still the seller's responsibility to collect the taxes. Not the buyer.

I know the FEDS have to really work on and investigate online Porn. They just can't come in here and pick people's name off of the Net. It's time consuming.

So I would venture to say that the company ratted out and gave in. Pity.

But I wouldn't pay those taxes. Let them go after the seller.

[SheLion]

The Declaration of Independence is not the Constitution. It was used to inform the British of our intentions, not as the rule book between government and citizens.

Someone just sent that in email. I thought I would pass it on.

[Madame Dufarge]

Unfortunately, many states have a Use Tax, which is just a substitute Sales Tax.

And it's the buyer's reponsibility to turn the tax over to Big Brother.

It's been sort of haphazardly enforced through the years, but many states and municipalities, tics that they are, have started to mine this cash cow.

Of course, now that smokers have been thoroughly demonized, they're an easy group to go after initially. After they've got a smooth-running template set, they'll come after everyone else, too.

I despise them.

[cougar_mccxxi]

This story is a prime example of anonymity being sacred. A good way to avoid oppressive government is to be anonymous. One must remember this every time someone wants your name, address, phone number, credit card, etc.

[SheLion]

Use tax.  That's the right word.

Did you know if the legislators across our country manage to bankrupt the Indian sources selling tobacco, the Indians will wind up back on our welfare rolls and we will once again have screwed them over and violated our Treaties with them? 

[SheLion]

I just received the following in email.  This guy is really up on this stuff.  Keep this information:

It doesn’t matter what they call it, it is still forced servitude.  If our frigging courts would follow the constitution instead of legislating from the bench we’d be a lot better off all the way around.    

I would just tell her and anyone else asking the question that the constitution forbids forced servitude.  They really don’t want to open this can of worms in a healthy society.  Forced servitude could also mean the draft, jury duty, or any other action that the government dictates from which there is no escape.  

[Brellium]

The indian reservations can tell the state/county/city governments to blow themselves and there wouldn't be much else those governments could do. If the businesses are hosted and run on Indian land it would be exactly if I incorporated and ran the business from the caymans. Indian reservations are not obligated to collect taxes for other governments. If I was running such a business I would delete all records just to see what the state could do.

[angkor]

We think they went after all sites besides the American Indians since they are tax exempt and don't disclose information ever to anyone or agency, they don't have to either apparently.

The feds don't need a subpoena to collect the names of buyers. Under the Jenkins Act of 1949, sellers are obligated by law to report the names of all buyers in states to which they ship cigarettes.

"...not later than the 10th day of each calendar month, file with the tobacco tax administrator of the State into which such shipment is made, a memorandum or a copy of the invoice covering each and every shipment of cigarettes made during the previous calendar month into such State; the memorandum or invoice in each case to include the name and address of the person to whom the shipment was made, the brand, and the quantity thereof."

http://www.senecasmokes.com/the_jenkins_act.htm

[SheLion]

President Bush, Members of Congress, Governor Pataki and Members of the New York State Legislature Must Honor Indian Treaties entered into by the United States with the Seneca Nation of Indians in 1784, 1789, 1794, and 1842.

These treaties recognize and acknowledge the Sovereignty of the Seneca Nation and guarantee not to disturb the Seneca's' peace and their enjoyment of their Seneca Sovereign territory and that Seneca land title is "Original, absolute and exclusive", [1857 NY State Senate Judiciary Report]. "The United States will never claim... nor disturb the Seneca's in the free use and enjoyment of their land". [1794 Treaty at Buffalo Creek]. The federal government in the 1842 Buffalo Compromise Treaty guarantee to protect the Seneca's "from all taxes".

Federal Indian Law exempts "the lands within any reservation in the State of New York to taxation for state or local purpose..." United States Supreme Court upheld a recent New York Court decision that holds that Indian Nations and the Indian retailers are immune from collecting state taxes on Indian Commerce.

DUE TO NYC INABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THE ABOVE TREATIES AND THEIR OBNOXIOUS ATTITUDE TOWARD NATIVE AMERICANS' CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, THEY ARE FORCING THE WHOLESALERS TO APPLY ALL TAXES BEFORE WE CAN PURCHASE PRODUCT FOR RESALE.

THIS PROBLEM EXISTS FOR ALL NATIVE AMERICAN BUSINESSES IN NEW YORK STATE

The NYC legislature is forcing Gov Pataki to enforce this law that they enacted in the budget which he vetoed. Unfortunately they overrode his veto and enacted the budget anyway

At this time NYC has postponed any tax collection until March 1st

This is a big victory because they are beginning to bow to public opinion for the Native American. We need to strengthen our position and encourage everyone, not only NYC residents, to rally to the cause and write or call the representatives in the NYC legislature to stop this collection process and recognize the Buffalo Creek Treaty and Seneca Sovereignty

To voice your opinion by email, letter or a phone call go to: www.honorindiantreaties.com

YOUR RESPONSE WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE

[angkor]

It's been sort of haphazardly enforced through the years

The difference is that the Jenkins Act of 1949 explicitly calls for the names and addresses (and quantities) of Internet cigarette buyers to be sent to the state tax administrators of every state on a regular basis.

So if you'd been buying cigs from on online business that is subject to the Jenkins Act, your purchases have been reported to your state tax authorities from the get go. That't the law.

So its not really the Use Tax that's at issue, it's the Jenkins Act.

[SheLion]

The feds don't need a subpoena to collect the names of buyers. Under the Jenkins Act of 1949, sellers are obligated by law to report the names of all buyers in states to which they ship cigarettes.

So what about all the other commodities we buy on-line? Napster just won a court battle and they do not have to turn over their customer data base to anyone.

So how can cigarettes be any different?

[EGPWS]

New yorkers get the living hell taxed out of them, the highest local taxes in the country etc etc. yet every election, who do they vote for overwhelmingly? Democrats over and over and over. Who do they vote for as Senator? The most corrupt liberal in this country. This is like asking a crook to rob you then saying "Waah, why did you rob me?" Pure lunacy

They vote for them because they can.

Intelligence of those voters requires another thread.

[WHBates]

"The difference is that the Jenkins Act of 1949 explicitly calls for the names and addresses (and quantities) of Internet cigarette buyers to be sent to the state tax administrators of every state on a regular basis.

Somehow the year "1949" and the term "internet" seem to conflict???

[EGPWS]

The feds don't need a subpoena to collect the names of buyers. Under the Jenkins Act of 1949, sellers are obligated by law to report the names of all buyers in states to which they ship cigarettes.

Government run amok!

[angkor]

Click on the link I supplied, or look it up in Findlaw.com for more extensive info.

The Jenkins Act is very specifically aimed at the taxation of cigarettes as interstate commerce, and describes how buyers, sellers, and states shall handle the varying taxes from one state to the next.

Basically it's designed to help states collect cigarette taxes.

[angkor]

Somehow the year "1949" and the term "internet" seem to conflict???

Yes. But to clarify Jenkins covers *all* cigarette sales which in the case of this topic includes Internet sales. Jenkins doesn't care how the sale was made (e.g. telephone, letter, telegram, anything).