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Man says he shot neighbor in self-defense
The Register Guard (Eugene, OR) ^ | 01.14.05 | Rebecca Nolan

Posted on 01/15/2005 6:50:11 AM PST by Mad Dawg

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It's a good shoot, I think, because the bogie suddenly presented his gun. But I wonder about one citizen detaining another. (If possible, FIRST call 911, THEN intervene.)

And how did the shooter let the bogie get that close to him? 3 feet is way too close unless you're pretty confident the bogie is disarmed.

I don't like this story 100%

1 posted on 01/15/2005 6:50:12 AM PST by Mad Dawg
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To: Mad Dawg

He's a Dumbass. He better have a good self defence argument.


2 posted on 01/15/2005 6:54:23 AM PST by MarshallDillon
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To: Mad Dawg
Three problems here:

1) He was carrying a Smith & Wesson. Get rid of that piece of crap and buy a real pistol.
2) He only shot him five times. The magazine probably held at least eight. Three should have gone in the trashbag's skull.
3) He feels bad about shooting this piece of garbage. It would make sense to feel bad if he MISSED, but he didn't.

But all in all, a story with a happy ending.

3 posted on 01/15/2005 6:58:14 AM PST by IronJack
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To: Mad Dawg
Winkelman couldn't explain why Hughes' girlfriend later said Hughes wasn't raping her.

Maybe he wasn't. Winkelman didn't see anything. He just had someone else's description of what happened.

"I'm not a police officer, but I'm certainly not going to let someone accused of a crime like that go wandering off,"

The guy wasn't "wandering off" until Winkelman went to his house.

If the other guy had shot Winkelman would it have been a "good shooting" since he was being threatened by a man with a gun? Of course Hughes is described as having long hair so that may make it OK.

4 posted on 01/15/2005 7:02:48 AM PST by FreePaul
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To: Mad Dawg
I don't like this story 100%

I agree. Seems the first rule of self defense is to not needlessly place yourself in danger in the first place. I think he overstepped his bounds and responsibilities. He knew who the man was, he was perfectly capable of identifying him, and he knew where he lived. Once he knew all those things he should have simply made himself available to testify once the man had been apprehended by the police. I think he should be charged with manslaughter.

5 posted on 01/15/2005 7:03:44 AM PST by Cornpone ((Aging Warrior))
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To: Mad Dawg

Knowing the identity of the suspect, he should have waited for police and told them his story. Intervening with deadly force in a crime is only permissible when life or limb is in imminent danger. Here, the danger had passed. A citizen's right to stop and detain a criminal is subject to question, although a citizen would not be constrained by the 4th Amendment. This incident is very interesting legally, but I'm sure the man realizes there were other options. Deadly force is permanent. 'It's a helluva thing to kill a man.'


6 posted on 01/15/2005 7:07:44 AM PST by Spok
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To: MarshallDillon
I don't think he's the Dumb Ass. Why would he need a good self "defence" (your spelling) since the police believed him and have not arrested or charged him?
7 posted on 01/15/2005 7:08:38 AM PST by Hoof Hearted
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To: Mad Dawg
Winkelman apparently learned his CCW training quite well, and is a smart, cool guy. This article reads like a lawyer's self defense shooting scenario. Except for the citizens arrest aspects, which are not something CCW training advises on, he said (and presumably did) all the right things:

"I don't feel happy and proud," Winkelman said Thursday. "I feel like I killed a human being. I caused a lot of pain for his family, and I caused a lot of pain for my family. We're devastated."

He stuck his hands in his pockets and was fumbling around. I said, `Get your ... hands out of your pockets.' " That's when Winkelman drew his gun from its holster. He had the safety on and his finger was on the frame, not the trigger, he said. He said he ordered the man four times to put his hands where he could see them.

"I kept shooting until he dropped the pistol."

(Of course, someone needs to explain why cops need to keep a gun "for evidence" in a case like this, where the only question is the justification for the shooting, not the identity of the shooter or the gun.)
8 posted on 01/15/2005 7:08:47 AM PST by Atlas Sneezed (Your Friendly Freeper Patent Attorney)
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To: IronJack
He was carrying a Smith & Wesson. Get rid of that piece of crap and buy a real pistol.

ExcuhYOOZE MOI?

My absolutely fave handgun is my 686P. "Did he fire 7 shots, or only 6?" But I like my sigs pretty much too.

9 posted on 01/15/2005 7:12:44 AM PST by Mad Dawg (My P226 wants to teach you what SIGnify means ...)
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To: FreePaul
Winkelman said they believed his story and returned his concealed weapons permit, though they kept the gun for evidence.

That's one gun that the guy will probably never see again.

I, too, find a lot to question here--the first thing being that this all came about because of something a 13 yr old kid said!

Certainly, if he knew the guy was in the house, he should have left well enough alone, and waited for the police to handle the situation.

10 posted on 01/15/2005 7:13:00 AM PST by basil (Exercise your Second Amendment--buy another gun today!)
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To: Mad Dawg

.


11 posted on 01/15/2005 7:13:21 AM PST by ThreePuttinDude (Plumbers for Bush....We flushed the Johns)
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To: IronJack
He was carrying a Smith & Wesson. Get rid of that piece of crap and buy a real pistol.

Smith makes great revolvers, I've owned several. Their automatics leave much to be desired, however. Every time I see a cop carrying a S&W auto, I always feel like going over and expressing my sympathy to him. Of course, they'd think I was being a smart-ass, so I don't.

I have a 5906 that was a police contract over-run that I purchased brand new. It jammed with factory ammo on the third magazine. It's frightening to think that our men and women in law enforcement have to cope with this kind of equipment.

12 posted on 01/15/2005 7:14:03 AM PST by Hardastarboard
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To: Beelzebubba
(Of course, someone needs to explain why cops need to keep a gun "for evidence" in a case like this, where the only question is the justification for the shooting, not the identity of the shooter or the gun.)

Yeah, there ought to be some kind of generic stipulation so that you could get your gun back right away.

13 posted on 01/15/2005 7:14:29 AM PST by Mad Dawg (My P226 wants to teach you what SIGnify means ...)
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To: IronJack

Get rid of that piece of crap and buy a real pistol.

...........................................................

What handgun do you recommend?


14 posted on 01/15/2005 7:15:11 AM PST by kingsurfer
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To: Mad Dawg

Oh no! He killed Carrot Top.


15 posted on 01/15/2005 7:16:23 AM PST by yarddog
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To: Hoof Hearted
Why would he need a good self "defence" (your spelling) since the police believed him and have not arrested or charged him?

Personally I'm a fan of creative spelling. And, if guns cause crime, then keyboards cause spelling mistakes so I think you should lighten up, okay? ;)

Seriously, the more I read this, the more I think that (a) If this gets in front of a grand jury, things may change; and (b) maybe the dead guy was universally acknowledged (or at least the police might have thought so) to have "needed killin'", since everything else about this shoot is, at best, questionable.

Somebody comes up to me out of the blue and says,"I think you just attempted rape and I don't want you to go anywhere and I'm drawing my weapon to see that you don't," I'd charge the sucker with assault. I must be missing something here.

16 posted on 01/15/2005 7:27:31 AM PST by Mad Dawg (My P226 wants to teach you what SIGnify means ...)
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To: Mad Dawg

everything else about this shoot is, at best, questionable



When did they guy make an error (aside from incurring risk by trying to detain suspect)?

What did he do that would not be entirely proper for a cop to do?

Do/should citizens have the same right as cops to detain those witnessed committing felonies?


17 posted on 01/15/2005 7:40:01 AM PST by Atlas Sneezed (Your Friendly Freeper Patent Attorney)
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To: Mad Dawg

Winkelman may, just may, not get indicted. I'll be mildly surprised if he's not. He will need a good lawyer for the civil suit "the victim's" relatives will bring. Getting his gun back from the police may just be another asset for him to lose in the civil case.


18 posted on 01/15/2005 7:41:05 AM PST by FreePaul
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To: Mad Dawg

I think you just attempted rape and I don't want you to go anywhere and I'm drawing my weapon to see that you don't,"



He didn't draw the gun until the accused started fishing in his pockets for his.

But I think I would have let the rapist go into his own house. it's not like the police wouldn't be able to find him.


19 posted on 01/15/2005 7:42:07 AM PST by Atlas Sneezed (Your Friendly Freeper Patent Attorney)
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To: Beelzebubba

The guy was happy to let him stay in his own house. The reason he followed him was because he was walking away.


20 posted on 01/15/2005 7:48:23 AM PST by ozarkgirl
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