Posted on 01/04/2005 12:24:26 PM PST by Keyes2000mt
The words were said countless thousands of times last year as a minister concluded the ceremony. "What God hath joined together, let no man put asunder." But so often man and woman do.
While gay marriage has been roundly condemned in most churches (and rightly so), you will not hear much about divorce. In many cases, if divorce is discussed in church, it's talked about as this horrible circumstance that comes upon people, listed in the same breath as automobile accidents or serious illnesses.
The Bible is quite clear on the issue of divorce. Malachi 2:16 says it clearly, "For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that He hateth putting away (i.e. Divorce)..." Hate's a strong word and Christ reiterates this in the New Testament. Yet, in the church, even in Conservative churches, a man is more likely to feel uncomfortable with pierced ear than with a couple divorces behind him.
There's good reason why the church and conservatives are skittish about this topic. There's no one who doesn't know someone who's been divorced. They fill our church pews every Sunday. We know them to be decent folks who agree with us on a lot of cultural issues. Randall Terry, Newt Gingrich, and Rush Limbaugh have all been divorced.
We also know folks who have been victimized by their ex-spouse: abused, cheated on, and treated like dirt. Or, perhaps you dear reader have had a divorce where you weren't at fault and that you didn't choose.
On the other hand, most Christians know very few homosexuals and even less know homosexuals who'd like to get married. The odds of a pastor offending a large tither whose gay and wants to get married is quite small.
To say our current divorce rate is a national sin is not to say that all divorcees are to be condemned and treated as despicable outcasts. The church should be compassionate, but even as Christ said, "Go and sin no more," It must be proactive in dealing with divorce.
Divorce must be taught against strongly in the church. The church as a community should be dedicated to helping preserve the marriages of the church. Strengthening the marriages of believers should be considered as important if not more so than evangelism. Children of broken homes often wander spiritually and in many cases fall from faith. Thus, a large church may win 100 converts, but if it produces 40 broken homes in the same year that leads to 100 angry and embittered children, it is not truly building the Kingdom of God.
Also, church discipline should be used when appropriate for those who divorce without just cause and refuse reconciliation efforts. Watching Cornerstone Television, I saw former NFL player and Pastor of Antioch Bible Church Ken Hutcherson. He organized the Mayday for Marriage rally in Washington, DC opposing gay marriage. Call him anything you like, but don't call him a gay-hating hypocrite. Hutcherson said that in the past year, he'd censured five members of the church, including some for ending marriages without just cause.
The structure of most Protestant Churches is anti-authoritarian and the idea of church discipline is scary to most of us as we've heard horror stories about how cults have abused it. However, desperate times call for desperate measures and a biblical use of church discipline could aid in preserving marriages.
Secular Action
The devastating number of divorces is an area where the interests of church and state collide. Studies have shown that divorces lead to economic problems for states and communities, as well as the long term problems that come from children of broken marriages. It's no accident that the richest states are those with the lowest divorce rates.
The fact is that anyone who finds themselves in a bad marriage made a mistake at one time or another. Half the time, their biggest mistake was getting married in the first place. To prevent these bad matches or to help get the marriage off on a better start, marrying couples should be required to undergo several hours of marriage classes and/or marital counseling from a licensed minister or marriage counselor.
Secondly, no-fault divorce laws must be reformed. Marriage is the most important relationship a person has legally, yet it has all the force and effect of a month-to-month lease thanks to no-fault divorce laws. The laws should be reformed so a no-fault divorce can only be obtained if both parties consent. This would also reduce the court costs associated with issues of custody and division of the property as a no-fault divorce could only be obtained if both parties were agreed on it.
Those who believe in gay marriage have pointed to divorce as an argument against those who seek to protect marriage from same sex unions. I reject the argument that one evil prospering requires that we allow another blow to traditional family values. However, preserving the family is about more than one single issue and if we're going to be serious about it, we have to address all the issues that threaten the survival of the Family.
If what you describe is accurate (and I'm not doubting you) then you don't fit what I was talking about.
You are the reason divorce is allowed.
Shalom.
You would have been a 5th regular member outside me and my wife.
Shalom.
"Besides...I'm not at a keyboard in front of a nice desk like you girls....I'm banging away on a pocket PC.....but I'm sure you know what that is since you're so wise and all."
Thanks for the credit, unfortunately I can't return the compliment. As far as "banging away on your Pocket PC", do what you must, it's not for me to say what instruments you should use/abuse.
It's not just physical abuse, there also can be mental and psychological abuse. I personally feel that men suffer from the later form more often than physical abuse. It is just as damaging as your head hitting a wall.
Psychological abuse is sneaky. The neighbors don't see it. Sometimes the abused person eventually starts doubting reality. It's called "gaslighting". The kids growing up under that kind of atmosphere will be irreparably damaged. Getting kicked down the hallway because you didn't move fast enough is bad, choosing whether to believe a parent or your own lying eyes, is just as bad.
I would really like to know why God lets this stuff happen. Of course everyone will answer for what they did in this world, but he also said something about millstones and harming children. It would be nice if some people got what was coming to them on this earth, instead of the next world...
For the record, I believe in reinstituting "fault" in divorce. Too many people are divorcing for trivial reasons, but OTOH, too many people never have to answer for bad behavior.
"There is NO"clique".
Oh, it could be an ad hoc clique, but I call four or five people acting like you guys a clique.
"YOU presume to know GOD's inner most thoughts and feelings."
That is exactly the sort of behavior to which I objected. I have said absolutely nothing to justify such a nasty crack, and neither had at least several of the other people who were on the receiving end of them.
"You didn't approve of anyone standing up for themselves,against a hailstorm of insults and calumny spewed by people who you agree with."
No, it was you people who were the source of a hailstorm of insults and calumny aimed at those who disagreed with you.
"since reading things that aren't in lockstep with your way of thinking, makes you so ill,that you want to vomit"
Yup, insults and calumny just like that. People can disagree on the subject of divorce all day and all night without making me want to puke.
But people who make remarks like yours just above and "YOU presume to know GOD's inner most thoughts and feelings," which are as groundless as they are insulting--and who then pat themselves on the back for their wonderful behavior and noble tolerance--set the technicolor yawn in motion.
I probably wouldn't have said anything, despite the way you and the others misrepresented your opponents' remarks and used your own misrepresentations to insult them, if you hadn't at the same time been congratulating yourselves on your wonderfulness.
"But,and I am assuming that you put me into the "clique",you found nothing at all wrong with THAT behavior"
Well, at least he didn't spend several notes contratulating himself for his own tolerance, empathy, understanding, etc. etc. Anyway, the venom was already flowing freely by that point.
"only in the behavior and replies of those women (NOT THE MEN!)"
Another unjustified smear.
"Objective? You haven't been "objective" since you began to post. Neither have you been truthful about who said what to whom and when. You took one side and that has colored ever single reply you've posted."
Here's my first post: "Please don't think I'm trying to sit in judgement on anyone, but to comment in a general way, it seems to me that where a husband is beating his wife the men of the church should be giving him an attitude adjustment. In some cases, at least, that might work."
I await your retraction.
"When will YOU take exception to those on your side,who who took this personal and attacked others with ridiculous and spurious names like "JEZEBEL" and "cackling" and "immature little girls"?
When they (a) start congratulaing themselves for *not* acting like that when they really are, or (b) when they start acting like that toward people who aren't already acting like that.
"My guess is never."
And another slur.
I know, I know, you've made a fortune from that picture haven't you. LOL
In a word, no. Love is indeed an emotion. You'll find little debate over this.<<
Love is an emotion, but love is also a commandment. Human emotion can not be counted on to make a marriage last, sometimes a loving couple can really despise each other due to worldly circumstance - that's when the command part comes in!
I'm divorced -worst thing that ever happened to me...
Not addressing anyone specifically; however, divorce does not just 'happen' -a mutual divorce is the exception...
Would it be too much to suggest that approximately 'half' the divorced population as human nature dictates would wish to justify thier decision and therefore be biased as to sinful the nature of divorce?
"I take it you're for criminalizing homosexual relations then, as well?"
No. Actually I am in favor of no-fault divorces and gay marriage. I should have added a /sarcasm/ line. I think the state has no place in our bedrooms / love lives.
Proverbs 25:24
"It is better to be living in a corner of the roof-top, than with a bitter-tongued woman in a wide house."
"It's not just physical abuse, there also can be mental and psychological abuse. I personally feel that men suffer from the later form more often than physical abuse. It is just as damaging as your head hitting a wall."
Couldn't agree more.
"I would really like to know why God lets this stuff happen."
My belief is that it is necessary to His purpose that we live in a world where bad things can happen to good people. As Helen Keller said, "We could never learn to be brave and patient if there were only joy in the world."
"It would be nice if some people got what was coming to them on this earth, instead of the next world..."
Sometimes they do, but compared to eternity, what happens here on earth is an eyeblink.
"For the record, I believe in reinstituting "fault" in divorce. Too many people are divorcing for trivial reasons"
I agree. Then the debate turns to the sufficiency of causes.
Exactly! For some folks, there is no redemption possible when you violate THEIR personal code of ethics/religion. If that isn't the anti-thesis of Christianity, then I don't know what is.
Wine is good, but at this point a keg might be more economical. Not to mention that beer goes better with hotwings and nachos ;-)
You are absolutely correct!
"For some folks, there is no redemption possible"
This is a very long thread, and I might have missed something, but I haven't seen anyone argue that here.
No problem. I'm glad that the GAL sees through this man and will protect the kids and your daughter from his insanity. Hopefully others will also pray for you folks :-)
I am in favor of disordered homosexuals keeping thier depraved bedrooms out of the state and a constituional ammendment banning not only homosexual 'marriage' but all homosexual pairing 'rights'.
I think this article makes some excellent points. Christians divorce far too often, and they know better. It hurts families. Churches are right to counsel, pray for, cajole, and in the end sanction members who ignore a clear Biblical command.
As for non-Christians, I don't necessarily expect them to behave in this area as Christians do (or rather should.)
I think that no-fault divorce should be modified legislatively as well, with a penalty incurred to the offending spouse if he/she insists on divorce when the other spouse doesn't want it.
The author did not condemn you to hell. Christians are just sinners that are forgiven by God.
"I am in favor of disordered homosexuals keeping thier depraved bedrooms out of the state and a constituional ammendment banning not only homosexual 'marriage' but all homosexual pairing 'rights'."
How are their bedrooms in the state? A state as in Washington State, or a state as in the USA? Would you like to ban heterosexual sodomy too? How would you have the state monitor that?
And with regard to 'pairing'...that's 'free association' out the window, right? Oh yeah, a smaller government or a sex cop at the foot of every bed to make sure we're doing it married, for procreation - onanism is sin, right? - and in the prescribed position. Yeah...I can see that working out just fine. Bring on the Christian Taliban and we'll build the Kingdom of God right here.
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