Posted on 01/04/2005 12:24:26 PM PST by Keyes2000mt
The words were said countless thousands of times last year as a minister concluded the ceremony. "What God hath joined together, let no man put asunder." But so often man and woman do.
While gay marriage has been roundly condemned in most churches (and rightly so), you will not hear much about divorce. In many cases, if divorce is discussed in church, it's talked about as this horrible circumstance that comes upon people, listed in the same breath as automobile accidents or serious illnesses.
The Bible is quite clear on the issue of divorce. Malachi 2:16 says it clearly, "For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that He hateth putting away (i.e. Divorce)..." Hate's a strong word and Christ reiterates this in the New Testament. Yet, in the church, even in Conservative churches, a man is more likely to feel uncomfortable with pierced ear than with a couple divorces behind him.
There's good reason why the church and conservatives are skittish about this topic. There's no one who doesn't know someone who's been divorced. They fill our church pews every Sunday. We know them to be decent folks who agree with us on a lot of cultural issues. Randall Terry, Newt Gingrich, and Rush Limbaugh have all been divorced.
We also know folks who have been victimized by their ex-spouse: abused, cheated on, and treated like dirt. Or, perhaps you dear reader have had a divorce where you weren't at fault and that you didn't choose.
On the other hand, most Christians know very few homosexuals and even less know homosexuals who'd like to get married. The odds of a pastor offending a large tither whose gay and wants to get married is quite small.
To say our current divorce rate is a national sin is not to say that all divorcees are to be condemned and treated as despicable outcasts. The church should be compassionate, but even as Christ said, "Go and sin no more," It must be proactive in dealing with divorce.
Divorce must be taught against strongly in the church. The church as a community should be dedicated to helping preserve the marriages of the church. Strengthening the marriages of believers should be considered as important if not more so than evangelism. Children of broken homes often wander spiritually and in many cases fall from faith. Thus, a large church may win 100 converts, but if it produces 40 broken homes in the same year that leads to 100 angry and embittered children, it is not truly building the Kingdom of God.
Also, church discipline should be used when appropriate for those who divorce without just cause and refuse reconciliation efforts. Watching Cornerstone Television, I saw former NFL player and Pastor of Antioch Bible Church Ken Hutcherson. He organized the Mayday for Marriage rally in Washington, DC opposing gay marriage. Call him anything you like, but don't call him a gay-hating hypocrite. Hutcherson said that in the past year, he'd censured five members of the church, including some for ending marriages without just cause.
The structure of most Protestant Churches is anti-authoritarian and the idea of church discipline is scary to most of us as we've heard horror stories about how cults have abused it. However, desperate times call for desperate measures and a biblical use of church discipline could aid in preserving marriages.
Secular Action
The devastating number of divorces is an area where the interests of church and state collide. Studies have shown that divorces lead to economic problems for states and communities, as well as the long term problems that come from children of broken marriages. It's no accident that the richest states are those with the lowest divorce rates.
The fact is that anyone who finds themselves in a bad marriage made a mistake at one time or another. Half the time, their biggest mistake was getting married in the first place. To prevent these bad matches or to help get the marriage off on a better start, marrying couples should be required to undergo several hours of marriage classes and/or marital counseling from a licensed minister or marriage counselor.
Secondly, no-fault divorce laws must be reformed. Marriage is the most important relationship a person has legally, yet it has all the force and effect of a month-to-month lease thanks to no-fault divorce laws. The laws should be reformed so a no-fault divorce can only be obtained if both parties consent. This would also reduce the court costs associated with issues of custody and division of the property as a no-fault divorce could only be obtained if both parties were agreed on it.
Those who believe in gay marriage have pointed to divorce as an argument against those who seek to protect marriage from same sex unions. I reject the argument that one evil prospering requires that we allow another blow to traditional family values. However, preserving the family is about more than one single issue and if we're going to be serious about it, we have to address all the issues that threaten the survival of the Family.
I may be too tired to be tracking your meanings accurately.
I think I'll wait to reply significantly until tomorrow.
I'm quite comfortable with my beliefs and their application.
I'm quite comfortable trusting God to be God--obviously His way doing His priorities with His methods.
"I'm not a Christian, but I do believe in God. And I believe that your conscience is the voice of God. I often find myself saying things like "I would never do something like that" then I hear that small voice saying "Oh, but you have" and remember something that I've done that I'm not proud of."
-- How right you are! I think we all have done or believed something that we thought was right, but after thinking about it, we might realize it was not kind or the right thing to do. Everyone makes mistakes. Sometimes we hurt people by our actions or words, and for my part, I hope I didn't do that on this post. I did try to be as tactful as I could with my replies.
I know for you divorce was not an easy choice, it isn't for most of us here either. But sometimes the situation is so extreme that it requires the actions of a divorce. How many people actually go into marriage with the idea that if it doesn't work out, I'll get divorced? Not many that I know.
A big hug back to you, and many thanks for your rational post that put things back into perspective.
I wish you a wonderful New Year!
You just haven't heard him sing Pancho and Lefty, one of the great American songs of all time (though he didn't write it). I'd put it right up there with anything Cole Porter or Bob Dylan ever wrote.
Is it the conscience itself that is affected by external influences, or is it our willingness to heed the warnings of our conscience that is affected?
I don't think that you were trying to hurt anyone in your responses. You were justifiably disturbed by what you were reading. You know in your heart that your divorce wasn't wrong and it bothered you that other people were telling you that it was and passing judgement.
Another poster made a good point and I wish I could remember who it was so I could give them credit for it. (I'm also too lazy to look back through all of the posts to find it.) Basically he said regarding "what God has joined together, let no man put asunder" that we have no way of knowing for sure that God did in fact unite people in their first marriages. Just because fallible human beings make the decision to get married doesn't mean that God approves.
Back to the conscience thing again...I should have listened to mine when it was telling me not to marry my first husband. But because I made that commitment, I tried to make it work. I just couldn't do it on my own.
And on a happier note...Happy New Year to you, too. :-)
I think the Bible has lasted so long because for so many years it was part of government and to question it could result in death.
When was this the case ?
He is still suffering from a form of spousal abuse. He needs to empower himself and be ready to leave. To hell with what feminists think.
I really think that both are influenced.
Given the fits my computer is giving me . . . text takes a long while to appear in this window after typing grrrr. . .
I won't elaborate at the moment.
I really think that both are influenced.
Given the fits my computer is giving me . . . text takes a long while to appear in this window after typing grrrr. . .
I won't elaborate at the moment.
Even if divorce were completely outlawed, people will still get them, even if not legally. One simply walks out the door, and the marriage is over. Laws can never stop that.
I would submit, though, that making it too easy to get a divorce does contribute to the problem. In the "old" days, it was not easy, and in some cases was painful. I believe people stayed in the marriage through problem times just because it was such a pain to get a divorce, and in many cases the marriage got better and they stayed married till death.
To me that is the biggest problem....people hit a problem in their marriage, then bail rather than trying to work it out, just because it is so easy to get a divorce. If they tried to work it out, in many cases (not all) the marriage would work out.
Looking at it from a "purely scientific" angle, I think the issue of heterosexual divorce is probably the only fairly credible argument for homosexual "marriage".
Divorce is *exceedingly* damaging to society, yet there is no real outcry against it, likely because people have deceived themselves into believing it's morally acceptable.
I think what the homoactivists want is for this kind of moral apathy to spread into the arena of homosexuality, so that someday saying, "I enjoy having sex with other men 5 days out of the week" will be the equivalent of saying, "I passed gas today while mowing the lawn". It'll cause some slight discomfort to hear at first, but eventually people will just laugh and reply, "That's nice."
Please point out where I said that.
You're letting your emotions get in the way of reading and thinking.
I think the Bible has lasted so long because for so many years it was part of
government and to question it could result in death.
When was this the case ?
--
When Constantine had taken upon himself the office of lay bishop, and put the secular arm at the service of the Church, the laws against heretics became more and more rigorous.
But under the Christian emperors rigorous measures were enforced against the goods and persons of heretics. From the time of Constantine to Theodosius and Valentinian III (313-424) various penal laws were enacted by the Christian emperors against heretics as being guilty of crime against the State.
In some particularly aggravated cases sentence of death was pronounced upon heretics, though seldom executed in the time of the Christian emperors of Rome.
Theodosius is said to be the first who pronounced heresy a capital crime; this law was passed in 382. Heretical teachers were forbidden to propagate their doctrines publicly or privately; to hold public disputations; to ordain bishops, presbyters, or any other clergy; to hold religious meetings; to build conventicles or to avail themselves of money bequeathed to them for that purpose. Slaves were allowed to inform against their heretical masters and to purchase their freedom by coming over to the Church.
The children of heretical parents were denied their patrimony and inheritance unless they returned to the Catholic Church. The books of heretics were ordered to be burned.
The burning of heretics was first decreed in the eleventh century. The Synod of Verona (1184) imposed on bishops the duty to search out the heretics in their dioceses and to hand them over to the secular power.
Divorce is nearly as bad as homomarriage, IMNSHO.
I actually have no emotional involvement in this discussion. I've been divorced far too long to let emotions cloud my reading and thinking.
Far too many people on this thread have jumped on their bully-pulpit to judge out of hand others they do not know, nor know the circumstances.
The choices I have made in my life have no impact on anyone but myself and my immediate family, and are therefore really none of the business of anyone else. Nor is my relationship with God.
The same goes for others.....that is pretty much the only point I ever tried to make.
Have a good day.
(billyboyjohn) I think the Bible has lasted so long because for so many years it was part of government and to question it could result in death.
(Quester) When was this the case ?
(billyboyjohn) When Constantine had taken upon himself the office of lay bishop, and put the secular arm at the service of the Church, the laws against heretics became more and more rigorous.
But under the Christian emperors rigorous measures were enforced against the goods and persons of heretics. From the time of Constantine to Theodosius and Valentinian III (313-424) various penal laws were enacted by the Christian emperors against heretics as being guilty of crime against the State.
In some particularly aggravated cases sentence of death was pronounced upon heretics, though seldom executed in the time of the Christian emperors of Rome.
Theodosius is said to be the first who pronounced heresy a capital crime; this law was passed in 382. Heretical teachers were forbidden to propagate their doctrines publicly or privately; to hold public disputations; to ordain bishops, presbyters, or any other clergy; to hold religious meetings; to build conventicles or to avail themselves of money bequeathed to them for that purpose. Slaves were allowed to inform against their heretical masters and to purchase their freedom by coming over to the Church.
The children of heretical parents were denied their patrimony and inheritance unless they returned to the Catholic Church. The books of heretics were ordered to be burned.
The burning of heretics was first decreed in the eleventh century. The Synod of Verona (1184) imposed on bishops the duty to search out the heretics in their dioceses and to hand them over to the secular power.
Heretics (and others) were killed for their opposition to the Catholic Church ... not the bible.
In many cases the bible was the source of the so-called heresies.
It was through his reading of the bible that Luther was motivated to stand up against the Catholic Church, ... thus beginning the Protestant Reformation.
When government has been forced to make a choice between the bible and increased power ... the bible has always been discarded.
Cole Porter? No way! And Dylan doesn't belong up there with Cole either!
Living on the road my friend
Was gonna keep you free and clean
Now you wear your skin like iron
Your breath's as hard as kerosene
You weren't your mama's only boy
But her favorite one it seems
She began to cry when you said goodbye
And sank into your dreams
I don't know -- that's a pretty good piece of song writing...
As is this...
Sad-eyed lady of the lowlands,
Where the sad-eyed prophet says that no man comes,
My warehouse eyes, my arabian drums,
Should I leave them by your gate,
Or, sad-eyed lady, should I wait?
No,it's doggerel.
I want to be a Yale boy,
A Yale boy tried and true.
I want to be a Yale boy,
Fighting for the Blue!
I want to beat old Harvard,
Princeton and West Point too.
Mother, if I can, when I grow to be a man,
I want to be a Yale boy too.
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