The West's Growing Disillusionment with Vladimir Putin

GOPUSA ^ | 12/20/04 | Carol Devine-Molin

[GarySpFc]

Remember too that the night of the orange thingie in Ukraine, there was a post here saying that tanks were headed from Russia to Ukraine. I don't think one poster even questioned it, for at least several pages. It was just accepted that Putin was now going to try to take over Ukraine. I can remember how hard I was laughing, but it is really sad, I guess.

Ukie was the one who posted the nonsense about Russian tanks coming from Southern Ukraine headed towards Kiev. It doesn't take too much intelligence to see that Russia is a long ways from Kiev, and clearly is not south of it.
Furthermore, Ukie posted the nonsense about 1,000 Russian Spetsnaz landing at the airport outside of Kiev. Granted it was in a newspaper article. However, there would have been a major outcry from the world community if that were true. Have you heard one word about that since then? Clearly the Opposition was using propaganda to play on fear to strengthen their position, and many Freepers have bought into this nonsense.

[hchutch]

And of course, the fact that George Soros' guy is the alternative is lost on some people.

The "Orange Revolution" is just like what we saw in Georgia in `03 and Serbia in 2000. Same tactics - dispute election results based on exit polls, followed by massive street demonstrations.

[GarySpFc]

The "Orange Revolution" is just like what we saw in Georgia in `03 and Serbia in 2000. Same tactics - dispute election results based on exit polls, followed by massive street demonstrations.

Exactly! What is even more telling is that the exit polls were taken in Kiev, which is Yushchenko territory. That's like taking an exit poll in Boston to see if Bush or Kerry won?

[GBA]

I agree with you about a basic lack of knowledge the average poster has about Russia, but you are naive to think Americans, regardless of their age, are going to be able to completely ignore history.

Personally, I've never understood why Russia and the West in general and America in particular had to be enemies. We should be the best of friends. And I applaud the economic reforms Putin has enacted and wish we were doing similar things here. But, learning to trust Russia's leader while sometimes questioning his rhetoric and actions isn't reminiscing. It's just the process of learning to trust while not forgetting the past.

Say what you will about the skeptical attitudes found here, you may even be right, but I also believe that there are more than a few Russians who long for the glory days of Communism. Your words won't make the history of the old Soviet Union go away, but Putin's actions could go a long way toward making us all forget.

[massadvj]

Let's look at some valid figures from the CIA World Factbook:

The data in the fact book are estimates for 2004 by their own admission. The data quoted by the Economist are actual. The CIA World Factbook is not a particularly reliable source, especially when it is making estimates. The reason is that it tends to paint an overly rosy picture about economies that carry a large amount of US-originated debt in order to ease worries among US bankers that the country might default.

I have a Ph.D. in business and teach International Marketing at the post-graduate level. No objective researcher would rely on CIA estimates of economic data. The CIA will report the actual number when it is known, but their estimates are not untainted by political considerations.

[MarMema]

My friend who just returned from Russia says there are ads for Pentecostal churches on the Metro.
Doesn't sound very banned to me.

[GarySpFc]

Firstly, for someone with a Ph.D. you were vague when you posted "about $5,600." You critiicize the CIA's estimates and you call yourself objective when using "about?" Frankly, There is far too much variance in the numbers you posted and the CIA's, and having spent time in Russia I tend to doubt your's.

BTW, I likewise have a doctorate.

[jb6]

$5600

And it costs $60/month to feed a family of 3, what's your point? Most Russians own their apartments/houses with no payments. They were given them when the housing was privatized. The average car costs $1000, the average Western type car costs $7000. A farm away from the Moscow Oblast or one of the other major cities costs $5000.

As for your other figures, they don't jive with the CIA World Fact Book and no offense, but I'll trust them over the Economist that has been on the take of the oligarches for a long time, along with the WSJ. That's why the printed praise for Yeltsin right up to the economic collapse in '98, where they couldn't hide the BS any longer. Then they printed praise for Putin till 2000 when he turned on the Oligarches and started to clean up their act.

[jb6]

CIA World Fact Book Russia 2004 GDP: purchasing power parity - $1.282 trillion (2004 est.)

GDP - real growth rate: 7.3% (2004 est.)

GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $8,900 (2004 est.)

Investment (gross fixed): 18.2% of GDP (2004 est.)

Inflation rate (consumer prices): 13.7% (2004 est.)

Industrial production growth rate: 7% (2004 est.)

Work in progress:

TapTheSource/FearGodNotMen/GIJoel Propaganda

Propaganda	Truth
Putin is a communist	Putin has implemented a flat tax of 13%, got rid of the Sales tax, set the corporate tax at 24%, cut the VAT in half, cut 1/3rd off the payroll tax. He has cut back on government size (shrinking government). He has put up 20% of Russian land for sale, the government is in the process of divesting of the remainder of its shares in various companies. There has been judicial reform to a sitting jury from a triumvirate of judges. There has also been a total reform of the banking center, in order to make it transparent.
Russia and China are allied to destroy the US	Russia has recently passed up China for an oil export route and choose instead Japan. China had to turn to Iran. Russia is rearming in Siberia, while she arms India with over 400 new tanks, a wing of new aircraft, two nuclear submarines and an aircraft carrier to intercept Chinese shipping. Russia has armed S.Korea with T-90s, armed Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam and Kazakhstan. Russia has attempted (by itself and through the US) to arm Taiwan also. The majority of weapons sold to China are aimed at the US navy, to which China will not be able to catch up for at least another generation.
Russia trains with China to destroy the US/West	This year alone, Russia has had joint maneuvers with Japan & S.Korea and then again with the US and UK off the Chinese Coast.
There is a Putin pandering mafia after me.	There is a dedicated group of Freepers who are out to expose this propagandist's lies and distortions, for which he has already been banned twice.
If you are against me you must be a (take your choice) A. communist, B. Putin lover, C. Russian Orthodox, D. Russian, E. Delusional, F. All of the Above	G. None of the Above. You must be a lover of truth and a hater of yellow journalism, empty conspiracy theories and plain propaganda.
The FSB/Russians are behind all the terrorism, including the theater and Beslan.	Only someone blind or shilling for Islam would on a continuous basis shift blame away from the terrorists and onto the victims.
Russia is giving Iran nukes.	Wrong. Russia is providing a civilian nuclear reactor with a contract to return spent rods. Do most of us agree with this? No, we are against this. Is this nuclear weapons technology? No. Our allie Pakistan with the assistance of our Most Valued Trading partner China are giving Iran missile and bomb technology.
Russia, and Putin in particular, hate Israel and wish to destroy it.	Wrong. Russia is Israel's second closest allie and trading partner and provides Israel with most of its oil and sells it weapons technology.
Putin is an Atheist, a hater of Christ.	Putin was baptized as a child, a regular church goer and has proven his faith on numerous occasions.
Russia supports Islamic terrorism.	Wrong. The Soviet Union supported socialist Arab revolutionaries/terrorists like the Palestinian People's Liberation Front. Modern day Russia does not support these groups. Our allie Saudi Arabia is the number one backer of all major Islamic groups.
Putin is a dictator	Putin was popularly elected with over 70% of the vote, a mandate. He functions within a constitution. True Parliament is dominated by pro-Putin right wing parties, also elected freely. The various right parties received over 83% of the vote.
Putin hates Bush.	Putin has been Bush's loudest cheerleader, louder and in front of Sharon, Blair or Berlusconi
Putin is moving to grab power through selecting governors.	The governors still have to pass the local Oblast's Parliament's review (that's province). Further, England, Italy and France all have the same systems.
Robert W. Lee another TapTheSource writers are credible.	Hardly, most like Mr. Lee, belong to the John Birch society, an organization steeped in conspiracy theories.
Yeltsin's declaration of open borders is a hollow one for Soviet citizens, who still cannot leave their country. Even travel outside the Soviet Union is heavily restricted, regardless of the Soviet republic	Typical propaganda leveled by TapTheSource or his articles. Anyone without a criminal warrant can leave at will, so long as the receiving nation will issue a Visa.
The Secret Soviets are still in charge and everything is part of their plan.	Lets take this lunacy to its full extent: The Soviets in their diabolic mysterious master plan allowed the Warsaw pact to collapse, the countries to open up and half of them to join NATO (I guess to corrupt NATO from within, regardless that it is those new NATO members that support America now and most of old NATO that is against America, lets ignore that fact). They allowed the Soviet Union itself to fall apart, some of which is also now part of NATO. They allowed the military to degrade, trade secrets to be sold or stolen, Chinese immigrants to come in mass into southern Siberia. Most of their bases to shut down. The economy to dive and only grow again under Capitalism freer then America's. They further allowed the young to not even know who Lenin was, for Islamics (who are all pawns of the Soviets, you see) to attack Russia on a daily basis. All this so that once America was the only apparent supper power, had its military in 120+ nations they could do what? Spring their surprise offensive? Materialize the great invasion army from outer space or outer Mongolia? Or marry enough American men to convert them (think body snatchers) into 5th Columnists and take over the US from inside? (of course that more people then ever voted Republican is also part of their master and evil plan). As a matter of fact, everything that happens that makes this theory look ludicrous for the past 15 years, well that's just part of the brilliance of their master plan. Oh and did we mention that they were obviously able to make Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, Bush Jr. into a bunch of idiots who could not see into their plan. So either this is all BS, or every American expert in the government and politician is an idiot and we as a nation are a bunch of idiots (except for the members of the John Birth Society, the only masters of the illuminate able to see this grand Jewish .. erg .. Russian conspiracy.
Russia is a dirt poor country.	Russia ranks, according to the CIA World FactBook GDP: purchasing power parity - $1.282 trillion (2003 est.), which places it just behind (now ahead) of Italy, the world's 7th largest economy. Explaining Purchasing Power Parity
Anna Politkovskaya is a reputable Russian journalist who is fighting Putin's facism.	Hardly. Anna Politkovskaya is an opportunist and a leftist. Having become a "political" refugee in the early 1990s, she now has FRENCH citizenship, writes for the socialist La Monde and the socialist Novaye Gazeta. She has staged several of her own "assassination" attempts to better her street credits while meeting constantly with Chechin and Al Quida terrorists and writing gushing love stories of them. Further, anyone who thinks that just because she hates Putin she is pro Bush, you couldn't be more wrong. She is in league with the devil incarnate, Soros, and hates Bush as much. A leftist is a leftist, but judge for yourself and read her views of Bush and the CONSERVATIVES of AMERICA. COWBOY FRIENDS (Praise for Moore)
Russia is a nation that only relies on oil.	A total lie, mostly spread by Wahhabi islamic Saudi Arabia and various NeoCons who favor US investment to Facist (and pro-Islamic) China. Read here about the state of the Russian economy that is now returning as a major industrial and IT power. Russia competes directly with India on IT and has had manufacturing climbing at an incredible rate. Financ e Ministry to work on debt payment schedule Budget surplus higher than planned Person al incomes rise in Russia Most state enterprises to be privatized by 2007 Genera l Electric plans to invest $200m in Russia Person al incomes up in September Data on industrial production posted Russia 's foreign trade reported Gov 't considering airfield privatizations Russia posts increase in industrial production Russia 's foreign debt reaches six year low Russia 's debt to drop to 23% of GDP Russia leads in GDP growth Export s to play more important role in Russian economy
Ion Mihai Pacepa is a credible source.	Ion Mihai Pacepa was a 2-Star General in the Romanian KGB. The man made a career of upholding the second worst dictatorship Cecescu, in the Warsaw Pact, second only to Stalin's SU. He spent some 30 years building this murderer's power base. Obviously Pacepa was smart enough to read the writing on the way and see the end coming. He "defected" and now makes money writing books and articles. He never stood trial for his evil crimes, after the Romanian Revolution, even as his former master was executed.
The dramatic rise of oil prices, in April-September 2002, gave Kremlin new chances for survival.	Only if one ignores the 6-7% growth rates of 200 & 2001 and the tripling of revenues from the 13% flat tax in 2001.
Russia greatly expanded military supplies to China; in January-August 2002, the two countries concluded weapons supply contracts	Moscow is in the business of selling weapons, second largest after America. Thus, when China, rich with American cash from the giant trade deficit, ordered weapons from Russia, Israel and France. Russia did not give away "supplies" but sold weapons systems. They also sold weapons systems to India, Indonesia, South Korea, Kazakhstan, Greece, Cyprus, Malaysia, Thailand and a host of other nations.
During August and the first half of September, Russia\x{2019}s Defense Ministry and Foreign Ministry made a series of tough anti-Georgian statements, using as a pretext "the presence of Chechen terrorists in the Pankisi Gorge" (a small valley in Georgia bordering Russia). In the beginning of September, Russian bombers made a strike in Georgian territory.	The Pankisi Gorge is an area about half the size of W.Virgina, covered in some of the highest mountains and some of the deepest valleys of the world. Mostly unpopulated and forested, it is used as a training base for Islamics. Recently those none existent islamics perpetrated Beslan and Baseyov himself stated or boasted that he is allied to President Sakaashvili, president of Georgia and a Soros puppet. The strikes were made at early dawn by SU-25s, an impossability for Russia, since to reach it, it's closest SU-25s would have to have taken off and flow at night. Being a second rate SU, after the SU-33s, it is a day light capable only fighter/bomber. Georgia, on the other hand, has built several SU-25s with Israeli assistance that have state of the art night capabilities. Furthermore, no hard proof of the bombing was ever presented by the Georgian government, only recycled photos from 5 years prior.
And on Sept. 11, Putin himself threatened Georgia with a heavy military strike if the Georgian government didn\x{2019}t meet Russia\x{2019}s demands. Again, Washington protested, again with no results.	This was in response to a demand that Georgia stop granting visas, protection and support to Chechins, Arabs and other Islamics in the Pankisi Gorge and was limited to Russia stepping into that territory itself. This, after Georgia's only and now formally independent TV Station reported the presence of the terrorists, embarressing then President Shevernadze.

This is an ever growing list to bring the truth forward and fight the lies of these propagandists and Allah cheerleaders.

[jb6]

And you can walk down the street drinking a beer. Beer sales are something like 63% of alcohol sales.

[jb6]

Uki was also using the fair and balanced eXile as one of his sources. Funny, last time I checked, the eXile had such a warm and fuzzy for Bush. Maybe that's why they are banned here on FR.

[jb6]

Yup, these revolutions are also identical to the ones we'll see in Bulgaria in the beginning of 2005 and Armenia around 2006 and in the US in 2008. I wonder if these neocons will still be calling Soros a none major player when Hildabeast is in control of the White House. But then again, seeing the history of the neocons, they'll be just as happy under Hildabeast, since they did start out as leftists anyways.

As for the rest of the sheeple, I just love how the MSM throws out one BS accusation after another: storm troopers, tanks, flying saucers and then drops them just as quickly moving on to the next one and the sheeple don't even ask. Their 30 second attention span is just long enough to get that: orange good, blue and white bad.

[Destro]

Its funny how Americans are so easily manipulated like the sheep they have become.

[MarMema]

Freedom house doesn't match being there last week.
Sorry.

[MarMema]

I keep mulling over that tank thread and how no one thought to question it.

[Paul_Denton]

Putin: Once a KGB thug, always a KGB thug

[Paul_Denton]

I have long foreseen that Putin would invoke his old USSR-KGB roots and try to return Russia to the "good old" days of the repressive Soviet-era. His attempted poisoning of Viktor Yuschenko is clear enough proof of that, but Putin has gone further. He has encouraged Russian subs to be aggressive around American warships in international waters - a clear return to the days of the Soviet era gone by.

Well I say take it up a level and have our subs be more agressive around russian subs. The one thing that scared russian sailors more than anything is American subs.