If there were none, there would be atheism, which killed 11 to 14 million in this century. 
Posted on 12/16/2004 11:04:00 AM PST by quidnunc
The sky was already murky at 4 p.m. when I locked my bike outside Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese on Fleet Street. Inside, it was even murkier: wood-panelled corridors stretched off into the gloom, men in grey suits were wedged together, smoking Bensons and drinking bitter. No one looked even slightly like an Arch Priest of the Council of British Druid Orders. At 4:10 I found a separate little bar near the back of the pub. As I walked in, a big man with round shoulders and grey hair stared at me and I saw the corner of a magazine poking out from inside his coat. As I watched, the whole cover slowly emerged: a yellowy-purple watercolour of a fairy, and the title: The Witchtower. ‘Steve?’ I said. He nodded.
We bought bitter, found somewhere to sit, and began what turned out to be a three-hour crash course in modern paganism, one of the fastest-growing religions in Britain.
-snip-
So, can a modern pagan just pick any god to worship? I asked. Egyptian? Roman? African? Are there any rules? Steve put his hands self-consciously under the table, ‘No rules,’ he said. ‘Being a pagan is about being free from institutional rules. And the gods? Once you start seeking they choose you, really. Everyone has their own path, but we all celebrate the same festivals: the summer and winter solstices, spring and autumn equinoxes and four other festivals: Samhain, Imbolc, Beltane and Lughnasad.’
Pagans, I discovered during our second pint, are also united by their sense of the injustices done them by Christians. The last 2,000 years of history is a heart-wrenching tale of innocent occult revivals squashed by ignorant Christians …
-snip-
(Excerpt) Read more at spectator.co.uk ...
But God also gave Man free-will, so although God knew what was going to happen, Abraham had to make the decision in order for the inevitiable event to happen, otherwise God wouldn't have known what He knew from the beginoing ... (no that is illogical - Star Trek self aware computor blows up)
OK It was all an elaborate ruse by God to get Abraham to go to the land of Goshen to relieve the suffering of the sheep God knew was going to get trapped in a thicket.
If the event was inevitable, where is the free-will? Didn't God know before hand what the 'free-will' choice of Abraham was going to be. It would appear that, while Abraham believed he made a free-will choice, he really could not have chosen differently, could he?
Trying to resolve that just made my brain hurt.
Sorry, take 2 aspirins and e-mail me in the morning....I've been trying to figure it out for a long time myself.
If there were none, there would be atheism, which killed 11 to 14 million in this century.
You worship God by following His law. You also follow man's law for a stable society. But you follow God's law first as a higher power than man. If you hold that there is no God, then man and his law is the highest, therefore you worship man.
Not necessarily...there would also be just a plain belief in God, as I have, and I've never killed anyone.
What if you hold that there is a God, but there is no law of God?
I am NOT saying "that when someone uses a few bits and pieces from Norse heathenry in the furtherance of their racist notions, that that means that Norse heathenry is itself racist," and nothing in my postings implies otherwise. Dead Corpse, a nasty piece of work who freepmailed me an insulting and craven email, stated, and I quote,
Norse paganism, Heathanism, or Asatru, has as much to do with Neo-Nazi's as a tennis shoe has to do with global warming trends. Ie; nothing.
This is a ridiculously false contention, as anyone who has read the history of the Nazi Party should be aware. Read John Lukacs' The Hitler of History for a powerful recapitulation of the task Hitler assigned to Himmler to establish a new religion, centered in Wewelsburg castle, Westphalia, where Himmler set his team to develop a new symbolic code, part of which was drawn from Nordic tales. Norse paganism has its own history, no more or less racist and xenophobic than any other belief system of its time. The Nazis introduced their own brand of racism and anti-Semitism, phenomena that didn't even exist in a meaningful way when the old religions of the north were born.
Oy. So, if you diagree with this... "Norse paganism, Heathanism, or Asatru, has as much to do with Neo-Nazi's as a tennis shoe has to do with global warming trends. Ie; nothing," then you must also disagree with this:
Christianity has as much to do with the Klan as a tennis shoe has to do with global warming trends. Ie; nothing.
> atheism, which killed 11 to 14 million in this century.
Please point to references of where and how atheism has killed 11 million people since Jan 1, 2001.
I'm waiting...
They were dodos, what can I say? They weren't the first to pervert a belief system and they won't be the last.
Here's a freepmail I got from Dead Corpse. It provides an interesting insight into the quality of his intellect.
Moron. You really want to start airing out a laundry list of the kooks associated with Christianity? Do you? Then knock it off with the specious attacks against Asatru.
> I would never contend that Christianity has nothing to do with the Klan.
Ah, honesty regarding unpleasant truths. Most refreshing.
> They weren't the first to pervert a belief system and they won't be the last.
Consider that the same holds true for followers of the Norse gods. Yes, there is the knucklehead-set that chooses to see the old religion as some form of buttress for their racist BS, but the vast bulk of Asatruar see the skinheads as idjits.
What's *especially* funny: many of the "Odinists" (Odin being the preferred god for the racists because... well, I dunno) are in fact skinheads, shaved bald. The rest of the Asatru community finds this particularly hilarious, as back in the old days of 1000+ years ago, the *slaves* were shaved bald so that they'd be recognizable, while the aristocracy and freemen grew their hair long and kept it as neat and clean as possible. Long hair in good shape was seen as a mark of wealth and of care in ones personal appearance. Also, when the Christians showed up, they tended to bring with them their adopted Roman notion of short hair for men. Long hair was a way to tell the Pagan from the Christian.
The skinheads are basically calling themselves out as slaves and/or Christians. Heh.
> It provides an interesting insight into the quality of his intellect.
It provides very little in that way other than he made the impolite use of the word "moron." If you think it is fair game to point out those who have taken bits of the old Norse faith and perverted it... then it's fair to point out those who have done the same with Christianity. Keep in mind that if you think it tars the pagans, it also tars the Christians.
That really doesn't sound too bad, and it doesn't seem to say much of anything about his intellect.
I disagree. First, although ad hominems are all too common in debate, the use of a particularly insulting ad hominem like "moron" indicates a small mind. And secondly, the phrase "knock it off" implies a threat, an indication that reasoned debate is beyond the poster's ability, and so he must resort to imperatives.
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