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Politician Who Won't Say Pledge Of Allegiance May Be Recalled
Local6 ^ | Ded 15, 2004

Posted on 12/15/2004 11:24:22 AM PST by Tumbleweed_Connection

A recall election is now set for an Estes Park, Colo., trustee who refuses to stand up and recite the Pledge of Allegiance during the Town Board meetings.

"I have not been standing for the Pledge of Allegiance due to a conflict I have with the wording of the pledge, specifically the words 'under God,'" Councilman David Habecker said.

Habecker said it's a violation of church and state to include the words in the pledge and for that reason, he won't stand.

The board began reciting the pledge before meetings earlier this year at the suggestion of Trustee Lori Jeffrey-Clark. She suggested it as a way to show respect for the country during wartime.

Jeffrey-Clark said Habecker is expressing his personal views, not representing townspeople, when he sits down.

Habecker, who's served on the Town Board for 12 years, said he doesn't oppose the meaning of the pledge, and considers himself a patriot.

But some other council members and residents are upset about his actions and have enough signatures to hold a recall election. That recall election will occur Tuesday, Feb. 15.

All residents will vote on whether to recall David Habecker and a choice for his replacement in the event the recall passes. The recall is expected to cost a few thousand dollars.

"I'm sad for the community, that there is that much intolerance in our community. But if the people want to have a voice in what's going on, this is their way of doing it. And I will respect whatever the wishes of the community are," Habecker said.

Estes Park, which has about 5,500 residents, is the eastern gateway to Rocky Mountain National Park about 60 miles northwest of Denver.


TOPICS: Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 1stamendment; citycouncil; colorado; estespark; habecker; pledge; pledgeofallegiance; undergod
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To: t-1000

Your post was dumb because you assumed that atheists have no moral code and do not see anything wrong with comitting murder.


61 posted on 12/15/2004 12:35:24 PM PST by Modernman (Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. --Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Tumbleweed_Connection
... and considers himself a patriot.

I doubt he even knows what that word means.

62 posted on 12/15/2004 12:36:42 PM PST by shekkian
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To: Tumbleweed_Connection
[Rant] Why is it that the people who try to become exemplars of atheism are almost always the least qualified to do so? Always trying to argue a nonexistent line in the Bill of Rights?

Refusing to stand for the pledge is the type of stupid grandstanding that gets people ejected from public office. Its not like it would have killed him to just keep his mouth shut during the part he does not approve, or simply stand quietly. In my mind there are only two valid reasons for not rising for the pledge...

1) You are physically incapable of rising.

2) Your religion forbids swearing oaths to anything or anyone beside God.

If you want to tell a smart atheist/agnostic from a dumb one, ask them why they do not say the 'under God' in the pledge. If the word 'separation' pops up near either 'church' or 'state', then their busted. If they did the reading they would know that particular phrase comes from the correspondence of Thomas Jefferson, -not- the Bill of Rights.

Personally speaking, I would prefer it if 'under God' were not in the pledge. Not because the mention of God in a declaration of loyalty bothers me, but because I prefer the version that was used up until the 1950's. Of course, thats just me, and I could be wrong.[/Rant]

On a side note, doesn't it seem odd that the recall happened as quickly as it did? The numbers are strong enough, but it almost feels like someone is trying to get rid of him, possibly to create a vacancy for an associate.
63 posted on 12/15/2004 12:36:57 PM PST by ClockworkNinja (The first time we fought the UN's way was the Korean War. We are still there. Think about that.)
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To: Protagoras
I think you are experiencing a bit of tunnel vision.
I am using an extreme example of how ridiculous atheist are.
Do you not find irony in the fact that this person who is a "lawmaker" stands in direct opposition of the very thing that is the foundation of law and government?
I said hang him because it illustrates a fact that kind not be denied. That life in-itself his held at a moral high ground because of religion, not because of man. Thus the removal of life should make no difference in the absence of religion.

Or was it just easier for you not to think and just dismiss everything a stupid?
64 posted on 12/15/2004 12:39:57 PM PST by t-1000
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To: Austin Willard Wright
He is not representing himself.

He is representing the people who elected him.

65 posted on 12/15/2004 12:42:18 PM PST by TexasCowboy (Texan by birth, citizen of Jesusland by the Grace of God)
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To: t-1000
Or was it just easier for you not to think and just dismiss everything a stupid?

I didn't dismiss everything as stupid.

Only the things you said.

66 posted on 12/15/2004 12:44:02 PM PST by Protagoras (Christmas is not a secular holiday)
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To: Modernman
Please explain what moral code is if it is not a direct descendant of religion?
All laws and morals are because of religion.

From an evolutionary prospective:
Man has no interest in preserving other men unless they can be used to insure his existence.
This is why 95% of all male mammals live outside their packs.
67 posted on 12/15/2004 12:44:53 PM PST by t-1000
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To: camle
Defense of any religion is never tiresome.

What is tiresome is the assertion by some that Christianity is the only path to God. It is similarly tiresome to hear from radical Zionists that opposing Israeli government actions is anti-Semitic, and then asserting that any such criticism from a Jew represents the view of a self-hating Jew.

This nonsense has been going on around here and elsewhere for far too long and I'm sick of having to wade through such pious unadulterated crap.

Enough is enough.

68 posted on 12/15/2004 12:46:44 PM PST by harrowup (Just naturally perfect and humble of course)
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To: Tumbleweed_Connection
Oh yes. Yank him off the council.

He's not worthy to hold office in America. He has "reservations" about what we stand for.

He does not understand that his liberty flows from his creator...."one nation under God with liberty and justice for all"

69 posted on 12/15/2004 12:52:05 PM PST by NetValue (Trust the cobra before you trust the liberal.)
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To: t-1000
Please explain what moral code is if it is not a direct descendant of religion?

A moral code may be descended from religious moral codes, but that does not mean an atheist subscribes to that religion.

There are many aspects of the Christian moral code, for example, that are universal. No murder, no stealing etc. Some aspects of the Christian moral code are not universal and are purely religious in nature (no golden idols etc.)

Man has no interest in preserving other men unless they can be used to insure his existence.

Of course, but a smart man, whether religious or atheist, realizes that it is in his best interests to exist as part of a greater group.

70 posted on 12/15/2004 12:52:12 PM PST by Modernman (Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. --Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Eric in the Ozarks

Well....he's mentioning it now and has to run for reelection. Again, would you rather he lied (as most politicians do) and act the part of hypocrite?


71 posted on 12/15/2004 12:53:18 PM PST by Austin Willard Wright
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To: TexasCowboy

So he should lie (as most politicians with his views do) so as to better "represent" his district?


72 posted on 12/15/2004 12:54:45 PM PST by Austin Willard Wright
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To: harrowup

i never said that christianity was the only path to God. however it is percieved by many to be the main path, and therefore one that must be stamped out at all costs.

the elites have been waging war against God in general and Christianity in particular for decades and THAT is tiresome.

the fact that anybody equates my defence of God and Christianity with "Christianity is the only path..." shows the effect of social programming on that person.

We have been barraged with A + B = C for so many years that we unconciously think the way they have programmed us to think.

Be aware so you may take appropriate action against being led "down the garden path"


73 posted on 12/15/2004 12:57:00 PM PST by camle (keep your mind open and somebody will fill it with something for you))
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To: Modernman
You are failing to see the absolute hypocrisy of the politician.
Refusing to mention God when everything he does on a daily basis is directly attributed to the worship of God.

But none the less, my provocation of the issue has caused you to think about the issue from my prospective.
In that sense my statement did have relevance and is not "dumb".
74 posted on 12/15/2004 1:00:24 PM PST by t-1000
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To: Austin Willard Wright
No, he should represent the views of his consituents, and to do that, he has to know what they are.
This is a flagrant abuse of his power without any regard to the source of that power.
75 posted on 12/15/2004 1:04:54 PM PST by TexasCowboy (Texan by birth, citizen of Jesusland by the Grace of God)
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To: t-1000
This guys should be recalled because he obliviously does not understand the form of government we have in the United States.

He understands, and this isn't anything to be recalled over. Let the imbeciles who voted for him suffer with him, next time they might be more careful who they elect. So this was stupid.

He is supposed to be representing everyone of us his constituents.

You? He is your councilman? What if he represented someone who hated the pledge? Then it would be OK. Just one mind you, since he represents everyone. Another stupid statement.

By not reciting the Pledge during in a public forum is tantamount to dereliction of duty.

LOL, goofy as all the rest.

Just another politician that see himself as larger than the office they hold.

LOL, you are a funny guy. You don't know anything about the guy except what's in the article.

He was elected to serve the public, not to use his office as tool to promote his personal beliefs.

So, if he was in Germany in 1939, he would be wrong to refuse to say "Seig Heil"? (And don't get even goofier by saying I'm comparing the pledge to that)

He should be hanged.

LOL, a new high!!!

He doesn't believe in God, so we should be indifferent as to the morality of his existence.

Welcome to the Taliban and Ossama Bin Laden.

Like I said, goofiest post of the day award.

76 posted on 12/15/2004 1:06:14 PM PST by Protagoras (Christmas is not a secular holiday)
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To: t-1000
Refusing to mention God when everything he does on a daily basis is directly attributed to the worship of God.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

77 posted on 12/15/2004 1:06:21 PM PST by Modernman (Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. --Benjamin Franklin)
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To: JennysCool
Those who know their history know that it has always been and is now either "one nation under God with liberty and justice for all" OR "one nation under Islam with obedience and subservience for all". You have a choice!

France, Germany, Spain, and Norway are now seeing Islam on the march, swarming the East and the West. They are half-way under the whip already and they do not even see it.

Keep America free; keep your liberty; pledge allegiance to the Republic under God.

78 posted on 12/15/2004 1:06:44 PM PST by NetValue (Trust the cobra before you trust the liberal.)
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To: Xenalyte
And you have the nerve to criticize those engaged in such a noble undertaking?

Uhhhh...yep! And I'd do it again I would!

'Temerity' is my middle name.

Actually, it's Anthony but I'm thinking of changing it.    =;^)

79 posted on 12/15/2004 1:07:56 PM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts (All I ask from livin' is to have no chains on me. All I ask from dyin' is to go naturally.)
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To: camle

Here's an interesting mental exercise: What do you and others think will be the next major liberal whine issues to come along? They constantly have to have SOMETHING to bitch about or they're miserable. If you'll think about it, twenty years ago, no one, not even hardcore liberals, griped about the pledge, or felt a burning desire to see homo marriages, or had a problem with MERRY CHRISTMAS, or any of a multitude of other examples.

Ever wonder what made each of these issues become so passionately important all at once? And what will be their whine issues in five years, ten years?

MM


80 posted on 12/15/2004 1:12:21 PM PST by MississippiMan (Americans should not be sacrificed on the altar of political correctness.)
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