Respecting Ramadan, Banning "Christmas" (School District Favors Muslims Over Christians)

Illinois Family Institute ^ | December 2 , 2004 | Peter LaBarbera

[Law is not justice but process]

When schools "may also support [Christian] students by arranging a place for prayer," then it will be a parallel situation.

If I have heard the ACLU argument correctly the phrase "Schools may. . .arrang[e] a place for prayer" is clearly a violation of the Establishment Clause. Certainly if providing a place for Boy Scouts to meet on a government facility is a violation of the Establishment Clause not because they pray but because they do not allow members who fail to profess a belief in God, then "arranging a place" for Muslim students to pray violates it as well. The educrat establishment professes such fear of the ACLU that they will no longer call their Christmas Break by that name but rather Winter Break. Yet this same educrat establishment is allowing "Schools [to] support Muslim students by arranging a place for prayer." This is not a fine distinction but a blatant double standard.

If the educrats and the ACLU were truly concerned about creating a wholly secular school system, they would be much more fearful of "Schools . . . arranging a place for prayer" than schools allowing the BSA to just meet on their grounds. Obviously the educrats know that they will not be molested by the ACLU for allowing non-Christian groups a place on tax-payer-funded school grounds for prayer. They know their effort to accommodate Muslims is protected not by the Constitution, but by the double standard of the secularist left. If this does not disturb you, you need to take some time off then reexamine the issue. It is simply the most recent and one of the most blatant examples of this double standard. Is there an anti-Christian agenda behind the double standard? I used to think there was not, but it has become so blatant that I can no longer believe there is not an anti-Christian agenda. Care to try to convince to the contrary?

[Born Conservative]

[Calpernia]

I very much want to get to England. I have a love of Medieval Times. That trip is on my 'wish list'. I look forward to touring those castles!

[Law is not justice but process]

"When people see the Muslim religion infiltrating the school system. Then (they hope) that will cause legislators to pass laws that bolster the atheist communist separation of church and state doctrine."

F for punctuation but A+ for the point you make. By bringing Islam into the schools they can bring Christians into the fight on the side of secularization. Christians need to demand equality of access for Christians, not equality of exclusion for Muslims.

[HostileTerritory]

Good point. What sort of Lent guidelines do you think teachers would need in order to avoid problems with their students? How does Lent affect a typical Catholic student's school day?

As I see it, these guidelines are concerned with issues where there is a real lack of familiarity and understanding. I don't think someone should feel "left out" if another holiday isn't discussed. The obvious explanation is that there's not a similar need for guidelines about a holiday if it has less impact on student life in school hours and it's something the teachers (who are much more likely to be Catholic and have Catholic friends than to be Muslim or to have Muslim friends) would know about.

I don't think you should feel victimized or left out by these guidelines. I don't see what harm they do. If there were a real need to educate teachers about how students celebrate Christmas, it would be done.

[HostileTerritory]

I don't think the Boy Scouts issue had anything to do with the establishment clause. It was about equal access to facilities without discrimination on the basis of religion. The Boy Scouts argued during the homosexual case that they were a private group and therefore exempt from state anti-discrimination laws. Unfortunately, this argument bit them in the ass when they tried to defend their access to government bases where groups are not allowed to discriminate on the basis of religion. They're a private group, ergo no special rights to ignore federal law while taking federal benefits. (paraphrasing)

I do think that schools are allowed to have Christian and Bible clubs meet on campus. I know my high school had one in the 1990s.

I suspect there is a lot of misunderstanding and confusion surrounding the legal interaction between state and local government and state and local schools with religion. I also think people are jumping to assume the worst-case scenario when that is not always warranted. The situation is much better than many of us fear. In addition, I see no reason to make life harder for Muslim students to pray within the guidelines of their religion. I fail to see that as an anti-Christian gesture when every religion benefits from equal access!

[FreedomCalls]

What sort of Lent guidelines do you think teachers would need in order to avoid problems with their students?

They should have explanation of the ashes on the students' foreheads on Ash Wednesday. They should accomodate special foods at lunch.

How does Lent affect a typical Catholic student's school day?

Needing special foods at lunch.

How does Ramadan affect a typical Muslim student's school day? Other than fasting during daylight it is no different than any other month in its affect on a student's relation to school.

[Eastbound]

"We. The People, should begin to treat them as such, and in earnest."

Yes, I read that thread. So be it.

[KC_for_Freedom]

A better example then lent was when Catholics could only eat fish on Friday. School cafeterias all around the country provided a fish meal on that day. Even if you were not Catholic, you got fish on Friday. I don't remember people complaigning all that much, even Jews and Protestants went along with it. And while on this subject, many people know that airlines and cafeterias frequently will accomodate orthodox Jews with an alternative of kosher food. Likewise vegetarian dishes are on many menus these days. There are a host of people trying to be politically (and religiously) sensitive.

This does not mean we should be forced into this political sensitivity. (Political Correctness).

I would like to see the trend toward accomodation continue, but it should be voluntary and related to density of belief. In predominent Christian areas or lets say a school with at least 10% Christians, lets see Nativity displays and have Christmas carolling in the halls and multipurpose rooms of the schools. For all religions, lets set up a place to pray. In predominently Jewish schools, (or lets say a school with at least 10% Jews, lets have school holidays on the Jewish High Holy days. Do you see the picture? If Islam has 10% of the student body, then the school should follow the advice of the letter on this thread. It starts to make sense when you take population into account and cover ALL religious beliefs.

I draw the line on religion imposed rules that affect others however. Muslims must dress in school uniforms if school unifors are a requirement. Specific Muslim dress should be allowed in regular schools if students have no school restriction on what they wear. But statements from Muslim men that "teachers dress like whores" are out of line when western dress is the norm. If Muslims want strict adhereance to their codes in school, then the school must be a private religious school.

Finally, for those in a school that does not follow these guidelines, (because they are voluntary after all) I say GET OVER IT. Get into a religious private school or home school, but drop the lawsuits and complaints. This is a free society but we do not have to accomodate every religious aspect if we don't want to. Jews who must have kosher food have known for years to bring their own lunches and I advocate not complaining about the school cafeteria no matter how hard it is to make lunch for your kid.


We all need to step back from political extortion and realize that offense is not a protected right.

[HostileTerritory]

They should have explanation of the ashes on the students' foreheads on Ash Wednesday.

My guess is that if you're an adult in Illinois, you either know what the ashes mean by now or any one of your coworkers can tell you. Catholicism is not a new religion. Have there been any incidents where teachers sent their students to the washroom because they didn't know about Ash Wednesday? Find one, and I'll agree that a memo like this is needed.

Don't lose sight of the purpose of the memo--it was intended to educate teachers about religious issues they might not be familiar with. The goal is not to make Muslims feel special or included because the Principal is telling teachers about their faith; it's to avoid conflicts and misunderstandings that are likely to happen.

They should accomodate special foods at lunch.

Is there any evidence that they aren't doing that? Do teachers poke around their students' lunches?

I repeat, if there were a need for education about Catholic students, the principal would make sure it happened. The absence of such a need is why there's no such memo. This is so plainly obvious to me that I don't know what more to say about it. I'm sorry if you feel left out, but that's not the point of the memo. It was intended for teachers who may experience misunderstandings in the class. No one should lose sight of that.

[Calpernia]

>>>By bringing Islam into the schools they can bring Christians into the fight on the side of secularization. Christians need to demand equality of access for Christians, not equality of exclusion for Muslims.

Is there a way to 'not take the bait' by demand secularization; but to demand or seize these assigned 'prayer rooms' to make them multi religious?

A general room equiped with a mecca rock, a cross and Star of David?

That move would be harder for the ACLU/NEA/Ilk without showing their true intentions. And once their intentions are blatant to all, they won't have much of a leg to stand on.

[HostileTerritory]

Every cafeteria I have used--public school in New Jersey, college in Massachusetts, private office in Massachusetts--has featured only fish or vegetarian entrees on Sunday. I'm not Catholic but I have never felt put-out by this for a moment. Hell, they made it exciting in grade school because Friday was cheese pizza day.

It is easy, when one is the majority, to argue that the minority should "get over it" and deal. However, I would be very cautious about making that line of argument. Individual rights are not dependent on how many people agree with you; they are individual. There are a few school districts in this country where Christians are a minority, and I would not imagine the reaction if someone posted here that Christians there should "get over it" and say a prayer to Allah before a football game because it's what other's want.

School laws are flexible. They must serve a purpose. If they can be modified to accommodate an individual's religious faith WITHOUT COMPROMISING the school's mission, it should be done. What disturbs me is when people go out of their way to avoid changing rules and make up b.s. rationalizations for how important the rule is when they really just don't want to cut any slack to Muslims. Some rules really are arbitrary and people score no points for defending that for no good reason but to discourage Muslim kids.

[Le Bouledogue Britannique]

"i thank god that i live in a decent country that holds true its beliefs - maybe all these yanks should emigrate to europe and the UK - at least we still have christmas and easter.

thats right yanks, much as you constantly go on about 'Eurabia' and the islamic 'hordes' coming over our borders, we're the ones with christmas and easter holidays and prayers and hymm singing in our state schools.

ring us back when its the same stateside."

Oh yes indeedie!

GOD BLASS MERRY OLD ENGLAND!

For keeping up the Christian traditions and protecting the faith!

I fear for those poor Yanks over there! It's all being taken away from them by the Islamics and the ACLU.

Another 100 years and they will all be under the yoke of Shahia law and Christianity will be outlawed.

Then I suppose we'll all have to go over and save their candy asses again eh chaps?

Damn, I'm glad I live in GREAT Britain! The showers might not always work and the beer maybe warm but at least we still have freedom of religion!

Ahhhhhh, makes you proud to be a Brit, so it does!

You see, their problem is that they have no consistantcy in their head of state over there. What they need is a King or Queen, instead of some guy that gets replaced every few years.

Sigh... all together now....

There'll allways be an England...

;o)

[AngloSaxon]

PING!

LOL!

[HostileTerritory]

A hundred years from now, most of the great-grandchildren of Muslim immigrants to the U.S. will be celebrating Christmas, drinking beer at bars (feeling a little guilty about it), and dressing exactly like everyone else.

The U.S. has been much more successful at integrating and assimilating religious minorities than any European country has, although Britain comes closest.

The proportion of Muslim immigrants to the U.S. doesn't come close to what it is in European countries. We have too many opportunities and attractions to draw them out from the ghettoes here, too.

[KC_for_Freedom]

There are a few school districts in this country where Christians are a minority, and I would not imagine the reaction if someone posted here that Christians there should "get over it" and say a prayer to Allah before a football game because it's what other's want.

I am sorry you feel this way, because majority rules are a good way to go. I realize there are some pretty fervent Christians on this forum, and here I am a minority (Jewish). But I believe in recognizing the religious activities of the majority, (and as you said minorities when it does not affect the mission of the school). I have been a school teacher, in public school, and agree with the majority that taking Christmas out of school is the wrong way to go. Separation of church and state is not what the constitution mandated, it came out of our activist courts.

Scouts have a good way to handle prayer. At camp grace was said by a different scout each day, and Jewish prayers and Muslim prayers would be just as acceptable as Christian prayers under these conditions. Scouts have the capability of recognizing and appreciating the prayer of a different religion and incorporating it in their own beliefs. For example when a Christian ended his prayer with the words, "In Jesus name we pray" I let it go without complaint and added my own Amen to the prayer. What is important is the prayer and the opportunity to give thanks, not that the wording is exactly what everyone present would agree upon. As I said before, Political Correctness is the far greater enemy of the Republic than prayer in school.

I'm not Catholic but I have never felt put-out by this for a moment. Hell, they made it exciting in grade school because Friday was cheese pizza day.

Good for you. This is the right attitude (IMO)

[AngloSaxon]

"We use to pray in school too. That is no longer permitted."

In merry old England my school had its own chapel. Before morning registration we could go to mass if we so chose.

USArabia...not long now! Still, we'll paddle across the pond if needed and start a new crusade to save your a$$es from dhimmisville!!

;O)

[The_Englishman]

I think the saviour here might be the Sikhs and Hindus who outnumber the Muslims and detest them more than anyone.

The problem I have with the Muslims is an apparent refusal to assimilate. You see successful Hindus and Sikhs in all walks of life, but the Muslims insist on 'ghetto-ising' themselves.

[Le Bouledogue Britannique]

Ah, my friend but you reckon without the evil communist ACLU, who even as we type are chipping away beaverishly at the fundaments of your society and digging resolutely under the foundations of your constitution.

You mark my words my friend, in a century you will all be living in an Islamic Republic or a Marxist totalitarian state.

You need to organise yourselves and fight back with no further delay.

I wish you well.

[HostileTerritory]

Well, I'm glad you are all having your fun with this thread. :)