Scholar to address biblical references to homosexuality

Houston Chronicle ^ | 12-4-04 | Tara Dooley

[Houmatt]

Documentary fans may know L. Michael White as co-writer of the 1998 Frontlineprogram From Jesus to Christ: The First Christians. As a scholar of the Bible and early Christianity, White has been asked to decipher what the Bible says about homosexuality, a divisive issue in some churches today. White, who will lecture in Houston next week on the topic, spoke with religion writer Tara Dooley about the "H-word," as he calls it, and the Bible. Here are excerpts from that interview:

Q: Well, what does the Bible say about homosexuality?

A: The modern category of homosexuality is not something that maps so neatly onto the ancient world. Although there are various concerns or discussions within the Bible — both the Hebrew Scriptures and in the New Testament — about all kinds of sexuality issues, what we think of as homosexuality isn't really something they talk about directly. Now there are certainly sex practices that are condoned or condemned in the Bible. So, in a sense, what I'm going to try to talk about is, in a more precise way, from a historical perspective, what those few passages in the Bible are really talking about in each case.

[SageofRugby]

The "Jesus never discussed homosexuality" is a false argument. In Jesus lifetime he lived under the old covenant which, regardless of what is said in this interview about translation, clearly condemns homosexual practices. Since Jesus, as a Jew, upheld the old law as he prepared the new covenant did not have to address this issue since it was wrong. Most of his teachings in the Gospels dealt with his extension of the old law.

The media has picked up on this mantra that "Jesus never condemned homosexual practice" without realizing that he didn't have to. It was already condemned in his religion. Paul's teachings on homosexuality and other NT references to the practices of Sodom and Gomorrah make it clear that there was never any revision in this condemnation.

[Search4Truth]

L. Michael White seeks to correct the "faulty" translations of the Bible based on the current society and culture. One of his favorite haunts for his sacrilege is the Episcopal church where they ordain homosexuals as Bishops.

Like all the minions of the Satan, this man seeks to do nothing more than create confusion, Satan's favorite tactic, to lead souls away from Christ.

He has been exposed previously on FR.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1219154/posts

http://www.palmerchurch.org/content.asp?Mode=DirectoryDisplay&id=382&DirectoryUseAbsoluteOnSearch=True

[BibChr]

Are there more passages about pederasty, child abuse of any sort, or wife abuse? Or fewer?

< /loaded question >

Dan
Biblical Christianity web site
Biblical Christianity message board
Biblical Christianity BLOG

[weenie]

Traitors, heady, high-minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away; Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

...hey, do you suppose Timothy is describing the Democrats?

[Alacarte]

"Jesus never mentioned pedophilia. Maybe he thought it was okay. He didn't mention rape either -- or cannibalism "

You are comparing an act perpetrated by two consenting adults in privacy, to rape and pedophilia? Haha! No one is trying to stop you from being a self-righteously intolerant (I support your right to show how up-tight you are all day long), and you aren't even doing it in private! So why do you think you have any right to dictate how gays live their lives?

If you want to have sex missionary style with your stuffy wife for the rest of your life, more power to you! Notice how no one is trying to stop you? Deal with the fact that there are other people who want more.

"Jesus never mentioned pedophilia."

Pedophilia is wrong, but there is no religious logic behind stopping it. Humanistic social values are universal, and have nothing to do with religious values, though some overlap. Allowing gays the same rights as everybody else is a humanistic social value. This appears to be one of those values that conflicts with religious ones. Just like always, free secular society trumps your third-world religious values. I suggest converting to islam and moving to iran, then you might actually get to watch gays being torured, wouldn't that be cool?

God of love and understanding my butt, if posts like yours are any indication.

[missyme]

Did Jesus address stealing? Did Jesus address every commandment of TORAH? NO the Jews knew Torah he addressed hypocrisy, he addressed helping the hopeless sinners, he addressed how to bring Pagan Gentiles into the Tree of Life that the Jewish people had, why did Jesus have to talk about homos? The Jews knew that sexual relations with your own sex or out of wedlock was a mortal sin....

[viaveritasvita]

No problem. It fills in my list of the obvious ones (Lev, etc). Thanks!

FReepmail me and tell me how goes the battle. I hope you got my snail mail.

<><

[VOA]

"I have a friend who considers homosexuality not so wrong since Christ did not
address it directly. She says the condemnation is Old Testament. This seems to be
a common argument...as if The Sons disagrees with The Father."

And this is one reason they need the "experts" and "scholars" and
"The Jesus Seminar" to try to paint St. Paul as some sort of obsessive-compulsive
dictatorial nutburger that was at odds with Christ.
And to slime other leading lights of the NT.

That's part of the drive to blot out Romans 1 and other inconvenient
New Testament passages.

[stranger and pilgrim]

There are a ��������number of symbolic threads running throughout the Bible. One of the most consistent is the use of male and female to symbolize God's word and spirit. The male pictures God's word while the female pictures his spirit. It's true in Genesis and it's true in Revelation and everywhere in between. Paul's writings become much less controversial once you understand this symbolism.

Just as in the natural it takes a man and a woman coming together to form a conception, it also takes God's word and spirit intercoursing to form a conception (of God) within our minds. The natural order of the world is a man and woman coming together. That's the blueprint of life and clearly it works, as evidenced by 6 billion people on the earth. The same blueprint applies in the spiritual.

It is completely out of order for man to be with man or woman with woman. It is also completely out of order to have God's word ONLY, without his spirit. Also, likewise, the spirit without the word will not produce life.

Once you get the spiritual picture it's so easy to understand why God said that homosexuality was an abomination. It is not God's plan and it is out of his order. Why? Because the picture is wrong. He's trying to tell us that it takes his word AND spirit. To have a natural picture suggesting otherwise would send the wrong message.

After all, the invisible things of God are clearly understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead. If we are to understand how God's power works in our life by his word and spirit intercoursing we only need to look at the natural picture of man and woman. Homosexuality, on the other hand, is an order (an out-of-order order) which will NEVER produce life.

BTW, the old "Oh yeah, what about childless couples?" arguement doesn't apply once you understand it's the picture being given that's important, not the actual outcome in the natural.

[TenaciousZ]

If you want to have sex missionary style with your stuffy wife for the rest of your life, more power to you! Notice how no one is trying to stop you? Deal with the fact that there are other people who want more.

Interesting perspective. Welcome to FR!

[Alacarte]

Cool! Now a list of all the passages that endorse slavery, say women are lesser, if a woman gets raped and doesn't scream loud enough, she deserves to die, etc...

Just out of curiosity, how do you people decide which biblical values are ok to enforce, and which ones no longer apply?

[Alacarte]

Thanks! You don't learn anything hanging out with people who all think like you do, so here I am! This is about the last place I would come to reaffirm my values. ;)

Don't get me wrong, the thought of having sex with another man disgusts me, I don't even know how women do it. The only thing that disgusts me more is people who, if I did choose to have gay sex, think they should have some input on the subject.

hmmm, a fan of tenaciousD? If so, are you also left of the mean on these boards? Or are you purely an artistic admirer of his?

[SilentServiceCPOWife]

If you want to have sex missionary style with your stuffy wife for the rest of your life, more power to you! Notice how no one is trying to stop you? Deal with the fact that there are other people who want more.

I agree with you that what consenting adults do privately is not my concern. But when you made the previous statement, you lost me. You said "deal with the fact that their are other people who want more". Your implication is that heterosexual sex between married people is lacking something in comparison to gay sex. You are doing the very same thing that you have accused others of doing.

[Jimmyclyde]

Cool! Now a list of all the passages that endorse slavery, say women are lesser, if a woman gets raped and doesn't scream loud enough, she deserves to die, etc...

So list them for us...

[uncleshag]

Hey Al-acarte!

Feel free to reject Him.
Jesus still loves you.

[Alacarte]

I was referring to sodomy in general. It used to be considered sodomy (based on religious values) to have sex any other way. By 'more,' I mean variety. Perhaps I don't understand you... how am I doing the same thing?

He is saying homosexuality is wrong, no matter where it is done. I said if he wants to have boring sex with his wife, go ahead. Maybe they have jungle sex, but that's not the point, the point is that no one is complaining about what he does in private. You'll have to explain.

[loboinok]

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."


BINGO!!!

[Alacarte]

Are you really challengin me to find hateful, barbaric passages in the bible? To try and justify them is one thing, but deny them outright? Please.

I cut and pasted these from a website, and only checked a couple with "Bible Gateway," but they seem mostly intact. I'm sure the list is not comprehensive.

The one I like best is if a woman is raped in town, and doesn't scream loud enough, she gets stoned to death... classic.

The point is that none of you follow the bible 100%. You pick and choose, you let social values take precedence over biblical ones. Social values now dictate that oppressing gay rights is wrong, so let go already, you know you'll lose. Just like you did with chauvanism and slavery.

It's ironic that the muslims you all hate so much are actually much better at their religion than christians are. It's not that the Koran is any more hateful than the bible, it's just that christians don't follow the rules like muslims do. Which is what makes them so dangerous.

---

Death for:

Touching Mount Sinai

Any who touch the mountain shall be put to death. (Exodus 19:12)

If Your Ox Kills a Person

. . . the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:29)

If You Kill a Burglar After Sunrise

. . . but if it happens after sunrise, bloodguilt is incurred. (Exodus 22:3)

For Worshipping a Cow

He said to them, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Put your sword on your side, each of you! Go back and forth from gate to gate throughout the camp, and each of you kill your brother, your friend, and your neighbor.'" The sons of Levi did as Moses commanded, and about three thousand of the people fell on that day. (Exodus 32:27-28)

Having intercourse with

a woman in her period

If a man lies with a woman having her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has laid bare her flow and she has laid bare her flow of blood; both of them shall be cut off from their people. (Leviticus 20:18)

Any Outsider Who Comes

Near the Place of Worship

. . . any outsider who comes near shall be put to death. (Numbers 3:10)

For Bringing a Foreign

Woman into the Camp

. . . he went after the Israelite man into the tent, and pierced the two of them, the Israelite and the woman, through the belly. So the plague was stopped among the people of Israel. (Numbers 25:8)

Death to a Whole City for Worshipping Other Gods

. . . you shall put the inhabitants of that town to the sword, utterly destroying it and everything in it — even putting its livestock to the sword. All of its spoil you shall gather into its public square; then burn the town and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It shall remain a perpetual ruin, never to be rebuilt. (Deuteronomy 13:15-16)

A Prophet Speaking in

the Name of Another God

But any prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, or who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded the prophet to speak — that prophet shall die." (Deuteronomy 18:20)

Malicious False Witness

. . . then you shall do to the false witness just as the false witness had meant to do to the other . . . . Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. (Deuteronomy 19:19-21)

A City That Refuses to Surrender

When you draw near to a town to fight against it, offer it terms of peace.

If it accepts your terms of peace and surrenders to you, then all the people in it shall serve you at forced labor. If it does not submit to you peacefully, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it; and when the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword. You may, however, take as your booty the women, the children, livestock, and everything else in the town, all its spoil. You may enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the LORD your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

But as for the towns of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not let anything that breathes remain alive. (Deuteronomy 20:16)

Murder

If anyone kills another, the murderer shall be put to death . . . . (Numbers 35:30)

Moreover you shall accept no ransom for the life of a murderer who is subject to the death penalty; a murderer must be put to death. (Numbers 35:31)

Adultery

. . . both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10)

Rape of a Betrothed Virgin

In the Open Country

. . . then only the man who lay with her shall die. (Deuteronomy 22:25)

A Raped Woman Who

Did Not Cry for Help

. . . stone them to death, the young woman because she did not cry for help in the town and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. (Deuteronomy 22:24)

Incest

If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall be put to death; they have committed perversion, their blood is upon them. (Leviticus 20:12)

Bestiality

If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he shall be put to death; and you shall kill the animal. (Leviticus 20:15)

If a woman approaches any animal and has sexual relations with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal. . . . (Leviticus 20:16)

Sodomy

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death. . . . (Leviticus 20:13)

Kidnapping

Whoever kidnaps a person . . . shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:16)

Priest’s Daughter Fornicating

When the daughter of a priest profanes herself through prostitution, she profanes her father; she shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9)

Witchcraft

You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live. (Exodus 22:18)

Offering Human sacrifice

. . . who give any of their offspring to Molech shall be put to death; the people of the land shall stone them to death. (Leviticus 20:2)

Striking or cursing father or mother

Whoever strikes father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15)

Whoever curses father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:17)

Disobedience to Parents

They shall say to the elders of his town, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard." Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid. (Deuteronomy 21:20-21)

Blasphemy

One who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall be put to death . . . . (Leviticus 24:16)

Working on a Saturday

. . . whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. (Exodus 35:2)

Gathering Sticks on a Saturday

. . . they found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day. . . .

The whole congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death, just as the LORD had commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36)

Family or Friends Who Invite

You to Worship Another God

If anyone secretly entices you--even if it is your brother, your father's son or your mother's son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend--saying, "Let us go worship other gods," whom neither you nor your ancestors have known. . . . Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them. But you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and afterwards the hand of all the people. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)

Sacrificing to false gods

Whoever sacrifices to any god, other than the LORD alone, shall be devoted to destruction. (Exodus 22:20)

Disobeying the Priest or the Judge

As for anyone who presumes to disobey the priest appointed to minister there to the LORD your God, or the judge, that person shall die. So you shall purge the evil from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)

[Jimmyclyde]

Nice cut and paste job.

Now tell me which of those laws you disagree with?

[nothingnew]

I said if he wants to have boring sex with his wife, go ahead.

"boring sex"?...what the hell are you talking about? What the hell is boring about sex with your wife (or husband)? You don't sound very sound.

BTW...welcome to freerepublic.

FMCDH(BITS)