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On Plato, the Early Church, and Modern Science: An Eclectic Meditation
November 30, 2004 | Jean F. Drew

Posted on 11/30/2004 6:21:11 PM PST by betty boop

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1 posted on 11/30/2004 6:21:13 PM PST by betty boop
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To: Alamo-Girl; D Edmund Joaquin; marron; Phaedrus; logos; beckett; cornelis; Diamond; Dumb_Ox; ...

Thought you might have an interest in these subjects -- if you have the time, please feel free to comment. Your thoughts would be most welcome!


2 posted on 11/30/2004 6:23:37 PM PST by betty boop
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To: PatrickHenry; Doctor Stochastic; js1138; tortoise; RadioAstronomer; VadeRetro; Dimensio; ...
Don't know whether this is exactly your cup of tea....

But if you dislike cosmology/metaphystics/theology, you can always skip down to the bold head, "Natural Law, Contingency, and the Scientific Method." Which is followed by another bold head, "Worlviews and Paradigm Shifts." The first starts near the bottom, the next follows closely.

Still, I hope you have the time and interest to get with "the culture" first.

In any case, it is always a great pleasure to hear from you.

So, if you have the time and interest, please do stop by and share your critique with me.

3 posted on 11/30/2004 6:30:17 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop

There was probably no such person as Plato. There was a school. Before you say he had a history, a wealthy Athenian family, all that, remember they had the same kind of history for Theseus. At least they had a ship, or they say they did, for Theseus.


4 posted on 11/30/2004 6:47:00 PM PST by RightWhale (Destroy the dark; restore the light)
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To: betty boop

If you believe something because it makes you feel good to believe it, doesn't that make you a hedonist?


5 posted on 11/30/2004 6:48:30 PM PST by BCrago66
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To: betty boop

Ping so I can read this later when I am suppose to be doing work.


6 posted on 11/30/2004 6:50:46 PM PST by escapefromboston (manny ortez: mvp)
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To: betty boop

plato ping


7 posted on 11/30/2004 6:53:09 PM PST by silverleaf (Fasten your seat belts- it's going to be a BUMPY ride.)
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To: betty boop

Thanks for the ping, BB. This looks like it may be your most ambitious work yet. An impressive effort. I'll try to digest it ... but you know my limitations.


8 posted on 11/30/2004 6:57:43 PM PST by PatrickHenry (The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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To: betty boop
The indisputable fact is that at its deepest level Christianity perceives the cosmos as a self-revelation of God.” [Wolfgang Smith, Cosmos and Transcendence, 1984]

Slow down Wolfgang. This is precisely what the early Church did not say. The Church Fathers made a clear distinction between the created world and the uncreated and stated that there is no similarity between the two whatsoever. This was the doctrine of the Church that drove the Neoplatonism of Clement and Origen and the eternal ideas or forms of Plato from the church forever, at least in the East. In this theology of the Church, creation is not self-revelation of God.

Furthermore, the Fathers make a distinction bewteen the uncreated essence of God and the uncreated energies or divine attributes of God. God's essense is unknowable, ineffable, inconceivable, incomprehensible. Revelation of God is only possible by means of the uncreated energy or divine grace which is His outward face to his creation.

The situation in the West was different and with St. Augustine and later the scholastics, the philosophy of Plato and Aristotle enter the theological thinking of the Church. This is most likely what Wolfgang is referring to. This Platonic perspective many be true for some theologians, but it is not an indisputable fact for Christianity as a whole and certainly not at its deepest level.

9 posted on 11/30/2004 7:00:52 PM PST by stripes1776
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To: betty boop

WOW - please add me to your ping list. This is the stuff I have been digging into this past year through a return to college and much - much reading on the side. So much to learn, so little time!
I look forward to future discussions!


10 posted on 11/30/2004 7:07:46 PM PST by freeagle
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To: stripes1776

You have a point. I suggest that even in Clement has a horse in your race. But allowing that Clement can be faulted for his apologetic, the word "Fathers" could be used less broadly than you propose. :)


11 posted on 11/30/2004 7:14:20 PM PST by cornelis
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To: betty boop

I'm not sure I like Plato's idea. I don't think I am just part of a giant sponge. ;^)


12 posted on 11/30/2004 7:22:35 PM PST by AndrewC (New Senate rule -- Must vote on all Presidential appointments period certain.)
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To: betty boop

betty boop

add me to your ping list


13 posted on 11/30/2004 7:40:04 PM PST by ckilmer
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To: cornelis
But allowing that Clement can be faulted for his apologetic, the word "Fathers" could be used less broadly than you propose.

Okay, how about St Theophilus of Antioch, St Irenaeus, St Athansius, St Basil, St Gregory of Nazianzus, St Gregory of Nyssa, St Epiphanius of Cyprus, St John Chrysostom, St Cyril of Alexandria, St Macarius, St Dionysius the Areopagite, St Maximus the Confessor, St John Damascene. That would take us up to about the 7th or 8th Century. Is that defined narrowly enough?

14 posted on 11/30/2004 7:42:48 PM PST by stripes1776
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To: betty boop
Kudos, betty boop! Excellent! Thank you so much for this wonderful essay!
15 posted on 11/30/2004 7:44:23 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: stripes1776

Now you're talking!


16 posted on 11/30/2004 7:46:34 PM PST by cornelis
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To: betty boop

read later


17 posted on 11/30/2004 7:57:49 PM PST by LiteKeeper (Secularization of America is happening)
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To: RightWhale
There was probably no such person as Plato.

Dream on, kiddo.

18 posted on 11/30/2004 8:02:06 PM PST by betty boop
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To: BCrago66
If you believe something because it makes you feel good to believe it, doesn't that make you a hedonist?

"Feel good" has nothing to do with it. This isn't about "body"; this isn't about "the creature"; this is about the human mind, thinking -- as it has, from time immemorial.

Do you have a problem with that?

19 posted on 11/30/2004 8:04:29 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop
As Pannenberg states, it is a historical process. We might even say it is an evolutionary process.

That should give both sides the heegie beegies--if it should sink in.

20 posted on 11/30/2004 8:07:52 PM PST by cornelis
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