Posted on 11/29/2004 2:35:59 PM PST by Next_Time_NJ
With your help, we are standing up for the right to vote, and the right for votes to be counted. David Cobb of the Green Party and Michael Badnarik of the Libertarian Party have filed for a recount of the presidential ballots cast in Ohio, New Mexico, and Nevada, and have filed a lawsuit in Ohio to make sure there is sufficient time to recount every ballot. The initial Ohio recount filing fees and expenses were paid with the help of thousands of small donations from all over the country. We appreciate your support of the recount, and of a more open and accountable vote-counting process.
(Excerpt) Read more at votecobb.org ...
Oh. So you mean that you *weren't* blaming it on our support for Israel?
2) You still didn't address why I should be willing to die for your vaunted "principles."
You were addressing someone else in the previous post. You don't know all my principles. I may lean libertarian, but I'm not one fully. So do me a favor, and stop assuming what I am or what I stand for. A question would do just fine, as I addressed above.
Personally, I don't care what you do with your life or your money. I do care about what you do with my life and my money. I don't have the socialist mentality of someone owing me something (because I think it's right), nor do I wish someone to push that upon me.
note: The last paragraph isn't accusing you of anything, it's merely a statement or reflection on what I want from you...which is nothing.
Then why on earth did you quote my response to yet another "I'll Sacrifice Your Life for My Principles" Libertarian and come up with your post about Israel?
This is what I wrote to someone else:
I'm sick and tired of all the Libertarians who are more than willing to put *my* life on the line for their ideals. When you've survived a massive terrorist attack -- one in which friends and neighbors of yours were slaughtered and you actually saw people die, before having to run for your life from a collapsing skyscraper -- *then* (and only then) will I take your views on "security vs. liberty" seriously.
And, for some reason, you responded with something about "understanding" the terrorists and heavily implying that we should dump Israel and let the islamfascists have their way, and that will supposedly make them leave us alone.
>There is no conservative party left in Washington.
>>Sure there is. Republicans are by far -- it's not even close to being close -- the more conservative party. There are no more isolationist nativist Buchananites left in D.C., to be sure, which may be the reason some folks feel adrift.
**Just to clarify something...It was in quotes, and I asked whether it was an honest point-of-view. If one looks at that quote, it's not purely right. Yes, 'Conservative' do exist, but in different form from their original outfit. But I suppose change is evitable. Thus the whole 'neocon' bit.
>The GOP may be Reaganite in its tax policy
>>That's a good thing.
*I wish there was more of a tax-cut, but that's not likely. I felt this one was small, but good.
>>And didn't the Islamic dictators and their henchmen declare war on the United States on 9/11? It's a war they started; but sometimes when dictators have "awakened a sleeping giant" the titan's "terrible resolve" will propel the giant to finish the war at a time and place of his own choosing.
* : ) I like your description there. Do you think Saddam was involved in all of this? Just a question...and no implication on you.
>FDR in its trade policy
>>What would be the alternative? A Smoot-Hawley approach to "free" trade -- Smoot Hawley tariffs being a major contributor to the Great Depression.
*Of coarse not. I've heard that it was more of an onset, than an intial cause; but I can't say I've throughly looked into that.
Source:http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/id/17606.htm
There needs to be a serious discussion with China over it's currency.
>and LBJ all the way in its spending policies.
>>But it's not spending beyong comprehension when one takes the total size of the economy into account.
*I find it disconcerting that they increased social spending quite a bit. It's something they need to work on.
>What's more, Bush is pressing for an Ownership Society that, if approved, would undo much of the economic and social morass left behind by the New Deal Ponzi schemes and the Great Society social welfare mess. Permanent tax cuts, Social Security private accounts, a possible flat tax, more home owners, a bigger investor class would transform the United States for the good.
*IF it's a good thing, I hope it works out. I dislike socialism just as much as most people here.
>>More likely, it's Reagan, FDR and Thatcher. The "shining city on a hill" can have brothers and sisters perched on pinnacles throughout the world. Those are "Republican principles" I can embrace.
*Thanks for your perspective, George. I'm not an idealist, personally. I think many of the middle eastern extremist will only be subdued with a bullet or imprisonment. I would like to deal with the extremist with a...
IRON HAND IN A VELVET GLOVE
Violent people only deserve deception, but I do not want to create more enemies out of the innocent. I'm sure that makes sense.
Shouldn't these liberal clowns be spending this money helping the poor since they care about the poor so much?
*Thanks for asking it in question form. The first assertion is a little different from the second question, so I'll answer both.
>>First old assertion:You think we should dump Israel on her ass and stop offending the delicate sensibilities of the poor widdle islamofascists.
*I don't think we should dump Israel. The reasoning behind this is simple: they have most likely have the capability of using nucleur weapons. Chance if we left that area completely dry, we would see Israel in a confrontation with many of the countries there. If we chose to leave, there a chance a nuke could fly, and that's something to be concerned about, deeply.
Secondly, we can't ignore our dependency on oil; and a conflict in that area could cause disruption in that. We need to keep that area secure till we can replace it. Sounds harsh, but I doubt the middle east will ever get better. Maybe Iraq, with many, many, many years ahead. But that's a maybe.
>Oh. So you mean that you *weren't* blaming it on our support for Israel?
*The full blame goes on the terrorist. Point blank.
In past tense, I think acknowledging Israel as a Jewish state (before it's nucleur capabilites) was a mistake. If America felt sorry for the Jewish people, they should have taken them in, not given support for land control in which bitter conflict is ultimately going to ensue the region. But that's then, this is now. We are not living in an era were we can just go back on this.
It's like saying the American governments treatment of Indians was wrong, so were going to give them all their land back, and move. No one in America would accept that. One generation is much more different from the next, and shouldn't be punished for their parents mistakes.
>>Then why on earth did you quote my response to yet another "I'll Sacrifice Your Life for My Principles" Libertarian and come up with your post about Israel?
Good question. Your name is GOPchick, right? So you GENERALLY support the GOP, which recently has a policy that I find scary, ie it's recently formed an aggression against a country on a seemly subjective basis. While Iraq may not be a safe place or full of good people, there are many threats eg Korea, which do form a more formidable/present threat.
The policy and procedures of the current leaders of the GOP make me feel that their ideals/principles are putting my life on the line. Yes, I'm sure Bush is getting rid of many terrorist in Iraq (and elsewhere); but is his policies making enemies out of the innocent? Many innocent people have died in Iraq. I know that's a part of war, but in that region, what prevents these people from joining the bad-guys? Not much, huh?
Is it okay to kill one enemy to create another based on 'principle'? Perhaps I'm reflecting what *you* think (about libertarians), on your president, ie I don't feel safe that I've gained another young arabian enemy from a formerly innocent child. I'm sure there's a new one forming each day.
Is this kid whom lost his innocent family, going to back pack the first nuke into America...I hope not..this is just a scenario, but it's not hard to believe this could very well happen.
I understand were your coming from, ms; I just want to convey a new set of ideas within what seems to be a GOP leadership objective. I know many republicans that think Iraq wasn't exactly the thing to do, even though they know there's benefits in the long-run. I just want to make sure we don't do this consistantly, and think it's kosher. A 'liberation' or a valid means of protecting Americans must be based on solid reasoning, not UN resolutions. We all know how valueable that organization is *note sarcasm*!
*cough* oil for food *cough*
>>And, for some reason, you responded with something about "understanding" the terrorists and heavily implying that we should dump Israel and let the islamfascists have their way, and that will supposedly make them leave us alone.
*You're still asserting something here, without a valid basis. I said nothing about dumping Israel, nor do I believe in doing such in these modern conditions.
Understanding motives is extremely important, and avoiding future enemies is important as well. That was my focus or primer behind this. Let's just avoid having another Iraq-like war. It's common fact that each war/conflict has let to the next (from World War 1, on), so I'm hoping we just roll through this one and not see the 'next'.
I'm sick and tired of all the Libertarians who are more than willing to put *my* life on the line for their ideals. When you've survived a massive terrorist attack -- one in which friends and neighbors of yours were slaughtered and you actually saw people die, before having to run for your life from a collapsing skyscraper -- *then* (and only then) will I take your views on "security vs. liberty" seriously.
Of everything I'd written, you chose that. Can you tell me why, or not?
Oh, and brevity is appreciated.
Simple: Some of your ideas are baseless within that paragraph. Explained below...
I did answer that question in the last post, too *shrug*. No insult, but I feel like I'm being asked to convert this into a two year old level of understanding. The concept are clear if you connect them together; please do so. Read the first two sentence of each paragraph, if that that helps.
I think of your president, George Bush, just like you think of Libertarians ie potentiallly dangerous to me. I just didn't say it directly in that post. I'm a leaning-libertarian, and I don't follow Libertarians on many of their outward relations; but ultimately I think Dubya didn't do the safest thing for Americans.
Libertarians are not putting your life on the line, they aren't even close to become a dominant force in my opinion. Extreme Muslims don't hate America just because their jealous of us, that's a retarded view of the whole situation. They obviously resent us being at all involved with that area, and there's nothing wrong for a libertarian conveying a more objective view on some of their motives (not all).
This by no means is threatening your life. Dems and Repubs are the ones 'ruling' this country, so it's their leadership/action and ideas which lead or prevent such. Blame it on Retard Bill C, and his denial of a offer on getting Bin before 9/11; and the general pussy stepping of the Dems with the UN--atleast that would be valid.
Many Libertarians aren't living in this paradigm, true, but they aren't the ones creating a mess. Is that simple enough?...I think your view was baseless, and I spoke of it in an indirect way...how about that? I think it's more objective to see this situation as a fault of the leaders, past and present, within the dems/repubs/terrorists. That requires less brevity to explain within this response, but ultimately you don't have to worry about little liberty hurting your 'reasoned' composed mind.
I received a reply yesterday from Irv Homer who stated that the comment about Hillary's plan was purely tongue-in-cheek.
He says that now, but it didn't seem so at the time. And it wasn't just once or twice he defended/advocated nationalized health care. And it was a time when there was a real danger of it becoming reality, and the libs (as in liberals) didn't need that type of boost even if it wasn't real.
Irv is a smart guy and his shows were usually pretty interesting. (He's still on some smaller station that I can't usually pick up.) But he was often infuriating, and I still say he does hate Republicans - not personally, but politically. He did a lot of Republican bashing and rarely criticized Democrats.
(That's one of my criticisms of the LP - they are constantly bashing the Republicans - and occasionally Democrats, but in my observation, to a much lesser extent. And you don't win allies and converts that way. Read "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. You have to let the other person come to the conclusion that you are right and simply telling them that they are wrong just hardens their position.)
The Patriot Act cuts a lot of that red tape. Also makes it possible for the CIA and FBI to communicate, as well as for different divisions within them to communicate among themselves.
Also - many people across the country lost friends and loved ones that day don't assume I didn't. I am truly sorry you had to witness these horrid events first hand.
Learn to read more carefully. I didn't just witness it, I survived it.
However, if we let these actions change the way our country views it's individual liberty and freedoms as guaranteed by our constitution we will be accomplishing what these terrorists main goals are - to destroy the United States and to erode the very things that have kept our country so strong.
As I said, when it's YOUR life on the line, you can feel free to willingly risk it for your Libertarian principles, but don't you *dare* put mine at risk for them. When you literally live in the crosshairs, *then* you can talk with authority about it.
Very easy for you to sit there and pontificate when you're not in danger of actually having to live your principles.
Tell me something I don't already know... I asked WHERE was it held. Who was it that organized the event? Was it a local affiliate, a state affiliate, the national party, or the presidential candidate? (FYI I was battling a major sinus infection that whole month and I don't stay up to date on politics when I'm fighting for my health and I am on major meds like Percocet. It's not a prudent thing to do. So yes, I missed it.)
And it was publicized well in advance. Once again, I'm sick and tired of looking it all up for every Libertarian who claims to be *so* involved in the party and up on all events, yet is dumbstruck when it comes to this one. But I did look it up, yet again.
Now, for *some* reason, it's no longer on the Badhaircut site, so I had to find the info elsewhere:
I had not planned on posting anything today other than the 9/11 Tribute, however I read a short article in today’s Dallas Morning News this morning and it’s been eating at me ever since. It was just a small blurb in the editorial section and discusses the Libertarian Party. Below is the typed article.
Michael Badnarik, the Libertarian Party nominee for president, seems to think Sept. 11 is a neat way to raise some case. On his web site, his campaign ecourages people to send checks for amounts of (.11. How cute. What’s not so cute is that he is also encouraging supporters all over the country to wear black and “meet up” today, not to mourn the thousands who dies as a result of the tragic 9-11 terrorist attacks, but those “who have died as a result of U.S. government policies.” Maybe that’s a valid reason to gather and protest. But not today.
Read the full press release here.
I do not have a problem with the donations corresponding with the date of tragedy, however I have a serious problem with the members wearing all black to protest against U.S. government policies on this day. These are the same people that “blame the U.S.” first. Way to go Mr. .004% of the American vote.
Here's the link to where I found it: http://www.inthebullpen.com/archives/2004/09/11/despicable/. Not surprisingly, no trace of this charming event on the LP site either. Go figger...
So, are you going to repudiate it -- with no qualifications or conditions whatsoever -- or just make excuses?
Here is what was posted on Badnarik's website (found under the Blog section). I'll let you read what was written by Steven Gordon, his publicity guy, and decide for yourself if they were being disrespectful of those who died. I don't think this is the case.
9/5/2004
Show them it’s not in your name
Filed under: Announcements, Contribute, Action Alerts, Scheduling
How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes, ‘n’ how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, ‘n’ how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin’ in the wind,
The answer is blowin’ in the wind.
How many years can a mountain exist
Before it’s washed to the sea?
Yes, ‘n’ how many years can some people exist
Before they’re allowed to be free?
Yes, ‘n’ how many times can a man turn his head,
Pretending he just doesn’t see?
The answer, my friend, is blowin’ in the wind,
The answer is blowin’ in the wind.
- Bob Dylan
9/11 was a day which changed America - forever. Thanks [in great part] to decades of interventionist foreign policies by both the Republicans and the Democrats, 2,752 people died in New York City and at the Pentagon in this horrific attack - the images of which will forever be etched in our hearts and minds.
Our government’s response has been to take it out on innocent Americans as well as the rest of the world. The Patriot Act directly attacks our most fundamental rights. This is the penalty our government imposed upon us for our suffering as a direct result of the 9/11 tragedy. Remember that Kerry voted for the Patriot Act, Bush signed it into law - and Michael Badnarik has pledged to repeal enforcement of the Patriot Act on his first day of office.
Our government has decided to punish our youth, as well. At this moment, it is reported that 982 of our children have died because they were sent into harm’s way to risk their lives in order to protect the interests of big government. Remember that Kerry supported Bush’s War of Aggression - while Michael Badnarik finds it both unconstitutional and immoral.
Even more deplorable, we are taking out our aggression on the citizens of Iraq. While no clear death toll exists, it is estimated that between 11,793 and 13,802 Iraqis have died as a result of our actions. All of these needless deaths occurred, yet no WMDs or link between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein were ever found. While Bush and Kerry argue about who will be the tougher war president, Michael Badnarik pledges to be our peace president.
This is all being done by both Republicans and Democrats in your name, and in mine. It is critical that we send not just our elected officials - but the entire world - the message that our government does not reflect the will of the American people.
There are two very important ways in which you may help spread this word - and let the world know that aggressive, interventionist activities are not being performed in your name.
1) On September 11, 2004, the Badnarik campaign will be holding its monthly Meetup in cities across the United States. As Meetups are held in local coffeehouses, restaurants, and similar facilities, the public will be aware of your local meeting. As this Meetup falls on the third anniversary of the tragedy in NYC, it is fitting for all of us to wear something black at our local Meetup on September 11, 2004.
If you are not familiar with the Meetup concept, please check out http://badnarik2004.meetup.com/ to find out more. Then sign up at http://badnarik2004.meetup.com/ in order to attend your Meetup. There are now 320 Badnarik2004 groups worldwide which will all be meeting at the same time on 9/11. Act now to help double that number over the next six days! Remember, it’s free and it’s local!
Make sure you pass this message to your friends and family to encourage them to attend. Feel free to invite members of your local press to attend your meeting. And don’t forget to wear something black to mourn the deaths of so many people, American and foreign, who have died as a result of our policies.
2) Make a special memorial contribution to the Badnarik campaign between now and September 11. It does not matter how much you give - just give what is in your heart. But let’s all do something special this time. Let’s each provide some quantity where the amount ends with $9.11. If all you can afford is $100.00, please consider making your contribution for $109.11. If you are fortunate enough to be able to afford a $1000.00 donation, by all means make it $1009.11. Even if all you can spare is $9.11, please visit https://badnarik.org/ to make your voice heard.
We will be posting the contributions received that end with the digits $9.11 on the website - so your voice will be heard! It is not the amount of the contribution that counts this time - but the total amount of contributions made that end with $9.11. The more of us who donate in this special memorial contribution, the louder our voice will be be. Please take the few seconds required to send your message to the world by making your special donation at https://badnarik.org/ today.
Friends, the world is watching and wondering whether Bush or Kerry will be the next Warmonger-in-Chief of the United States. By attending your local Meeting wearing mourning colors, and by sending in your $9.11 to $1909.11 contributions, you can tell the world that most Americans approve of neither Bush nor Kerry, nor of their policies.
After you sign up to attend the special 9/11 Meetup at http://badnarik2004.meetup.com/ and make your special 9/11 donation at https://badnarik.org/, please pass this message on to as many friends and family members as possible. Please encourage them, even if they don’t intend to vote for Michael Badnarik, to attend the Meetup, and to make a small 9/11 contribution - so we can send our message of non-aggression to our elected officials and begin to apologize to the world for the actions done in our name.
In peace and prosperity,
Stephen P. Gordon
Posted by Badnarik Blog Team @ 8:56 pm / # /
The true face of the Libertarian Party emerges again.
So, you think it's a good idea to use 9/11 as a cutesie fund-raising gimmick? Anyway, is not possible that the blog posting was retroactively altered after the uproar the original caused?
Sure, and Bill Clinton could become celibate by choice. Yeah, it could happen, but it ain't likely. So, yes, *theoretically* everyone everywhere is at risk, but if you don't believe that NYC and Washington, DC are at significantly more risk than the rest of the country, well then, you're just not in touch with reality.
Just because you lived through the attack on 9/11 doesn't mean you have carte blanche to decide our policies.
I never said that it did -- just that I particularly resent these pseudointellectuals who are *so* willing to put MY life on the line for their wacky "principles."
When one of these Patriot Act-hating Looneytarians has watched people die as they jumped from a 1/4-mile high skyscraper and then literally run for his or her life as the skyscraper next to it collapsed, wondering if he or she was living his or her last moments while crying because his or her cellphone wasn't working and he or she was thinking about the the very real possibility that he or she wouldn't get to speak to a loved one for the very last time, THEN I will give a crap about their opinions.
There are other times I've been attacked for my ideas and principles so DON'T go there. You don't know me - you don't know what I've been through...
Sounds like you bring a lot of your troubles onto yourself. I've lived most of life either in or just outside of NYC, and have *never* been sexually assaulted (we aren't allowed to have guns here either) nor has anyone ever thrown a pipe bomb at my home. And when my car was missing, the police showed up fairly promptly.
"...and I pray to God you nor anyone you know never will."
CORRECTION: ...and I pray to God you, nor anyone you know, EVER will.
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