Posted on 11/26/2004 12:30:00 PM PST by Ginifer
LONDON -- The Ukrainian election impasse has brought new attention to one of the world's worst-kept political secrets: The leaders of Russia and Europe, beneath their friendly façades, see each other more and more as gigantic whirlpools trying to suck away one another's financial and strategic resources.
That was immediately apparent yesterday when Russian President Vladimir Putin made a fog-enshrouded flight to The Hague to meet with leaders of the European Union. It was meant to be a summit to discuss sharing influence in the countries that sit between the two powers, but the Ukrainian situation destroyed any illusion of friendly co-operation and revealed deep and possibly permanent disagreements.
Mr. Putin began yesterday morning by sending a telegram to Ukrainian Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovich, whom the Kremlin had backed. It declared him the winner and boasted that he would "bring the Russian-Ukrainian strategic partnership to a new level."
Soon afterward, he stood on a podium with European leaders who said that the election was fraudulent and implied that Russia should stay away. Mr. Putin then openly denounced European efforts to negotiate a fair election result and said that the situation in Ukraine was not a European problem. By last night, EU foreign-policy minister Javier Solana had announced that he would travel to Ukraine today to try to reach "a negotiated diplomatic settlement" to the impasse.
As the meeting's original agenda disappeared into the gloom, the leaders sounded increasingly like large fish circling around a small and wounded minnow.
"I am deeply convinced that [the EU] has absolutely no moral right to push this large European country into mass-scale unrest of any sort," Mr. Putin said of European efforts to scrutinize the vote. "I do not think other countries can recognize or refuse to recognize the elections in Ukraine. This is the Ukrainian people's business."
Those words reflected a growing fear of EU dominance felt by Mr. Putin and his colleagues.
That fear was spelled out in explicit detail last week by Konstantin Kosachev, a close ally of Mr. Putin and chairman of the Duma committee on foreign affairs. In a speech to the Russian legislature, he expressed what are said to be Mr. Putin's deep fears of an expanding EU driving America and the rest of the world away from an increasingly feeble Russia.
Mr. Kosachev warned that Europe "before our eyes, is slowly but surely drawing in, like a giant whirlpool, our neighbours. Russia, obviously, feels this strong gravitational pull."
He warned of "a growing confrontation in post-Soviet territory" in which "Western critics are increasingly frequently accusing Russia of pursuing imperialistic goals," while "these countries [such as Ukraine and its neighbours] are forced to accept an anti-Russian orientation."
The EU's financial assistance, in the view of Mr. Kosachev and many other Russian officials, is a form of bribery to draw countries such as Ukraine out of the Russian economic and political sphere and into Europe, in effect turning Russia into an isolated, economically feeble power.
"Eastern European countries are constantly offered participation in Western European structures as a sort of 'refuge' from Russia in order to neutralize its influence," he said.
As the summit collapsed into mutual accusations, the Russian and European leaders were able to find official agreement on only one major point: Neither power wants to see the Ukraine crisis resolved in a violent fashion.
"The US has to back the Russians, unfortunately."
Why? They richly deserve one another, and could be left stewing in their own juices. If anything, their squabbling and [hoped for] mutual weakening could be in our best interests. The only point to observe would be to keep EU economical and technological infrastructure out of Russian hands, until that infrastructure becomes obsolete by 50 years.
If France is leading then Russia must be following. Unless it's vice-versa.
We Need a 'Multipolar' World, Russian, Chinese Leaders Say - May 28, 2003 - "Russia and China stand for a multipolar, just and democratic world order based on the commonly recognized principles of international law," Presidents Vladimir Putin and Hu Jintao said in a joint statement apparently targeting the United States and its decision to go to war against Iraq without fresh U.N. approval.
Joint declarations in 1997 and 1998 referred to the need for a new world order based on "multi-polarization" - a reaction to a "unipolar" order dominated by U.S. "hegemony."
In 2001, Jiang and Putin signed a treaty of "good neighborliness, friendship and cooperation" that again highlighted the importance of "anti-hegemonism."
China is heavy into it as well. Germany France and Brittan agreed to the NEW restrictions on Iran. Not to their making of Nuke weapons. Frankly this whole scenario reminds me a great deal of what Germany was allowed to do in the run up to WW2. I have very little faith in the IAEA to keep Iran under wraps. They have WAY too much pre-processed Gas to just write them off as not being able to produce weapons. They have enough on hand now that they could easily make a weapon or two and keep it's existance hidden (they were processing and centrifuging as much gas as fast as they could last week before the ban took hold). It is the best card they hold in an otherwise crappy hand. The Government is so close to falling, holding a Nuke may be their only hope of maintaining that power, and they know it.
The Eastern part of Ukraine is primarily ethnic Russians and the West is more oriented toward Europe. It's actually a commonsense solution but it will never happen for the same reason there will be no Kurdistan.
Yeah and Russia just supplied them with the actual material it takes to build nuclear weapons. There wouldn't have been anything to sign off on if they were not given nuclear materials buy the Russians, who are so corrupt that they would sell Osama bin Laden a bomb if the price was right. They wouldn't care that he might use it against them because that would require rational thought. Anyone who thinks Russia is our ally must have been on another planet for the past hundred years. I guess you see no problem with the Russians' involvement in election fraud in an independent democratic nation. The EU is telling Putin the same thing Bush is telling him, which is that his country will face serious economic consequences if he doesn't mind his own business. Russia is the reason this election is so screwed up, and they are already sending their military into the Ukraine. Moscow is trying to regain control of Ukraine. If I didn't know any better I might say that they seem to be on their way back to a socialist dictatorship. Putin did start off as KGB man. I don't think they cared very much about human rights, and democracy.
You think? Read what the man himself has to say about it. Look also at his nifty work in Belarus and his centralization of power in Moscow. There is now not a single independent media source in Russia. Not one. They have all been shut down by Putin. Doesn't that sound eerily familiar?
I think that Russia is threatened by the EU, and so is the US.
This is true, in a way. It is true in the sense that we live in a competitive world, and everyone is threatened by everyone else. There are no hard, permanent alliances (except, perhaps, ours with Britain and Australia). Russia is NOT threatened by the Franco-German controlled EU. In fact, they manage to cooperate rather nicely in geopolitical and economic affairs. However, Moscow is HUGELY threatened by an eastward-expanding EU in which Franco-German power wanes while the Poles, Czechs, and other former subject peoples' rise. A free and European Ukraine would further undermine the French and Germans and tilt the European balance of power more to the East (i.e., into the hands of our New European allies).
The Russia people were poll before the US election and they backed Bush.
I love the Russian people. They are an amazing nation. It's their leaders I worry about.
Europeans HATE us.
West of the Danube, this is becoming more and more true, though I still think it's an overstatement. We want to encourage the growth and power of Mittel Europe, and I can think of few things that would do more to advance this agenda than a free and independent Ukraine.
Just my two cents.
Sorry--that should have read: "The French are not the only voice in the EU."
I disagree somewhat Johnnyboy.
Iran is RICH in Uranium ore. Very rich. All they needed was the right equipment . That is where Russia and China come in. I would not be at all surprised if some of the payment for that equipment was a quid pro quo in Ore back to them. Iran is an Oil rich nation. They have no need for Nuke power plants. They need a hammer to hold over the heads of the newly freed nations of Afganastan and Iraq (one on each of their boarders sandwiching them between two democratic nations, while trying to maintain a Secular Islamic repressive Government. Not a tenable situation for them at all from their point of view)
You are right about Putin though. That snake has no interest in democracy. He is only out for power at any cost. Trust him as far as you can throw a tank. But then again, you can always trust a lier to lie I suppose. Makes him predictable I guess.
I'll tell you what, I'm not even going to voice an opinion on what should be done in this matter. This is far bigger than what I can get MY little mind around, and the ramifications for making the wrong decision could be very, very costly for us. I'm leaving this one to Dubya.
Nows the time for Bush to stir the pot by announcing that the worlds security hasn't improved since France started trying to dominate the EU and eastern Europe in particular.
I understand that you are just tying to be realistic. I'm not suggesting we start WWIII over this, but we need to back the Ukrainian people in every way we can. We should use as much economic leverage as we possibly can against Russia. Your comment about the Freedom Fries movement was right on point in my opinion. France is a major pain in the a$$, but they are not a major threat like Russia. France and Germany are also not the entire EU, although they are the two most influential members. Russia is still a very powerful country with a lot of nuclear weapons. And the Russians seem to be moving away from democratic government. I'm not suggesting we do whatever the EU wants, but in this situation it suits to support them. I think it is smart for The U.S. to try to play both sides, but all in all the EU shares more of our common goals.
The moment is at hand for the Ukrainians to decide what the Ukraine is to be. We can support them in their efforts, but it is beyond our reach, I think, to micro-manage an outcome.
Here's hoping the opposition and Yuschenko are genuine and faithful. I have my doubts about Yuschenko, though I could certainly be wrong.
i do..france and germany and spain have made there intentions clear..The UK had better align with us. cause outside of russia..the brits and aussies are the only ones we can trust..
while ivan the bear looks to bring itself back from an era forgotten, there may come a time when the russians can handle the EU as needed and no one would dare say anything if bush is thinkin the same way i am. bush would "condemn" the action publicy but then tell putin good job,
The EU has much more to worry about than the "Pesky" yankees.
just my opinion
True, I must admit
that your posts stand out more than
they would otherwise.
Half of them voted for one candidate, half for the other.
Some people keep talking, as if 80% voted for Yushchenko, and Putin would be forcing the other guy on them.
It was a close election, actualy Yanukovich won 3% more of the vote. There were irregularities -- MAYBE.
The objective is to have a legal, fair election, NOT TO FORCE the RU's and Soros's candidate on the Ukrainian people.
I meant not to force EU's candidate on the Ukrainian people.
LOL! Oh, come on...you had to be laughing when you wrote that, right?
Results in rigged elections are usually not good evidence to make an argument. Sadaam Hussein got 100% of the vote in Iraq's last national election. Do you have any evidence that Soros was funding a candidate in the Ukrainian elections, or did you just make that up? The 2000 election was a close election, and I don't remember masses of people threatening a general strike. This election looks like a sham. Listen to what the Bush Administration is saying about this election.
What do you want:
a) fair elections and accept whomever the Ukrainian voters elect.
b) Install Yushchenko as president no matter what the Ukrainian people decide.
====
I keep getting the impression from your and other Yushchenko fans posts that you want to foist him onto the Ukrainian people, regardless, because the EU and Soros told you he is a good guy.
In just a few days time you've gone from trying to convince us that Yanukovich won fair and square to admitting that "there were irregularities--Maybe" to now calling for a new election.
I think we'll just wait a few more days. By then, your boy Kuchma may be on a plane to Moscow and you may be telling us that Yanukovich at least deserves to be made mayor of Donets'k!
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