A REAL discussion of moral values

Frankly, the whole "We're-moral-and-you're-not" argument is so much bilge. For example, how does that explain why a red state like Nevada offers legal gambling and legalized prostitution? Why does blue Massachusetts have the lowest divorce rate in the nation (about half that of Texas)? For that matter, how is it the thrice-divorced Limbaugh, an admitted narcotics addict and given over to great anger (one of the Seven Deadly Sins, remember), can present himself as a spokesman for "values?"

Driving south on I-91 a few days after the election, I caught part of Rush Limbaugh's program. Not surprisingly, Limbaugh was reading from the current Republican script about how Republicans have morals and values and Democrats don't.

The source of this spin is some exit polling that found 22 percent of the people who voted on Nov. 2 named "family values" as their top concern, ahead of terrorism, the economy and other issues we've come to expect are on people's minds when they vote. This 22 percent broke for George Bush by something like 4 to 1. Without deconstructing that poll, suffice to say this was not some spontaneous outpouring of support, but rather the successful result of Karl Rove's intense effort —from grassroots organizing to regular White House briefings — to recruit 4 million evangelical voters to come to the polls this year. Nonetheless, many pontificators claim, as Limbaugh did, that the presidential election was "about" morals and values and that people believed Bush had them and John Kerry didn't.

As I listened, Limbaugh, referring to the electoral map with its two patches of blue separated by a swath of red, told his audience the left has "fled" all those parts of the country where morals and values are important — meaning the red states — to go hole up in their little preserves of blue.

I heard that and thought, "You talkin' to me?" I was reared a solid Republican in the Midwest, about 150 miles from where Limbaugh's family lived, as a matter of fact. As I grew up and changed, so did my politics. After ROTC and College Republicans, I found, by my late 20s, I'd become a liberal independent and had moved to Vermont. But as I was packing for the trip East, I don't recall thinking, "Ack, moral values! I gotta get outta here!"

Let's all take a deep breath here. What's more important, I think, than arguing over who's got the higher morals, is talking about how we should apply our common standards of behavior and decency to build a good and just society. Certainly, in the current hyper-polarized political environment, where there are deep divisions even over the definition of a good and just society, this is not a conversation that's going to happen soon. Finding common ground on abortion and gay marriage seems pretty unlikely. But we'll all be better off when that conversation does happen. If we need a religious context to begin, I suggest the Sermon on the Mount — blessed are the meek, the merciful, the peacemakers; turn the other cheek; judge not, that ye be not judged. That would be a good start.

For their part, Democrats/liberals/progressives shouldn't shy away from talking about their convictions in moral terms. The current morals/values debate, let's face it, is centered on sex and who gets to have it. We can broaden that debate.

We used to talk about the moral imperative of confronting poverty or racism or violence. We can do that again. We can take a deeper lesson from the voters who said values were important, and that lesson is to listen to them, address their concerns, present our ideas and beliefs in a way that reveals their grounding in moral conviction.

We shouldn't fear a real discussion about morals and values; we should welcome it.

John Fairbanks lives in Montpelier (and doesn't know anything about red state values)

for someone who claims to be in some sort of touch with Red America - I can see that he still doesn't understand what happened on Nov 2.

....and Furthermore - Limbaugh has talked, rather extensively, about this Morals and Values issue - and this fruitcake hasn't heard a word of what was said, and even if he listened to the words, I guess it is beyond his ability to understand .....

When the Rats can convince the majority that spending other people's money to make yourself feel good is the moral thing to do...they wil win again.

I agree with his take on Red states and blue states. I'm tired of hearing about "red state people" and "blue state people". There are plenty of conservatives in blue states and some liberals in red states. There are some "Blue states" that are socially more conservative than some "Red States". Compare a "Blue state" like Pennsylvania to a "Red State" like Nevada and I think you'll find that Pennsylvanians are more conservative in their values.

he current morals/values debate, let's face it, is centered on sex and who gets to have it. We can broaden that debate.

Translation: We Democrats have seen Morals only in two ways: Push the Homosexual Agenda, and Push the Abortion Agenda. We've lost on both of these, quite clearly. But we will pretend we have not. We will not give in at all. We're Democrats! We do not recognize the possibility that we may be wrong about anything. Instead, we will broaden the discussion so that we can lose on a broader spectrum of issues. First suggestion: Push the Pedophile Agenda!"

Just more "Rush-hate" from the losing liberal left. They are so totally wrong about everything they think and do...yet they think they have room to criticize others --- which IS ALL THAT SCAM OF A CANDIDATE, KERRY, DID DURING THE ELECTION --- critcize. If the left ever cleans itself up, develops values and again cares about America, rather than their own selfish empowerment, they might have a chance. Until then leftists everywhere, just go back to the alleys and caves of America -- that is where you belong.

I think that a liberal's idea of Morals and Values has a larger economic component than a conservative's idea of Morals and Values. An exception to this is the concepts of Homo. Marriage and Abortion. With these exceptions, the conservative Morals/Values position would stand with Traditional American Values - the liberal's oppose tradition......because it's so damned Old Fashioned

The liberals are really getting goofy with all their navel gazing since the election.

They still don't understand what has happened to them, as a party and a political force. He sums up the whole liberal platform with this line:

"Finding common ground on abortion and gay marriage seems pretty unlikely. But we'll all be better off when that conversation does happen."

That's their entire concern, killing unwanted children and letting queers marry. Nothing in the world matters to them, it's all negotiable, except these two items, they care little about anything else.

If we need a religious context to begin, I suggest the Sermon on the Mount — blessed are the meek, the merciful, the peacemakers; turn the other cheek; judge not, that ye be not judged. That would be a good start.

In typical liberal fashion, take one extract out of context and that sums up his opinion. Somewhere in the sifting process, he forgot the Ten Commandments, particularly this one:

Thou Shall Not Kill .

And God is the judge of that one!

Pro-llife ping!

We're all sinners. It's just that some of us admit it and try to deal with it, and others deny there's any such thing as sin.

Some people actually feel virtuous about supporting abortion, for instance. I don't gamble, because I think it's a poor idea, but it's not in the same league with killing babies.

As someone once said about good art. I know it when I see it. Values I mean. Michael Moore does not have values. He may but he just chooses not to listen to his conscience. The Democrat party has been defined by the loony left and they don't seem to have a problem with that.

I grew up in the Democrat South. If you won an election in the South you were a Democrat and the Democrat that won was the one that was the most Conservative values wise.

They Dem's have abandoned these constituents and I think thats GREAT. However, IMHO all the party has to do is move just a little to the Right and these voters are still there.

why the disparity in the divorce rate between Texas and Massachusetts?
1. Later marriages in Mass. perhaps? Putting off marriage to an age of maturity helps marriage as well as high-powered careers, especially for women who buy into liberal mantra of women's place is in a career rather than as homemaker.
2. Higher percentage of catholics? Possible.
3. Higher acceptance of living together as opposed to getting married in liberal states. no marriage--no divorce.

We can take a deeper lesson from the voters who said values were important, and that lesson is to listen to them, address their concerns, present our ideas and beliefs in a way that reveals their grounding in moral conviction.

Well, Mr. Fairbanks, why don't you start with explaining how abortion on demand is grounded in moral conviction. You didn't lose because you have NO moral convictions. Your party lost because they stand for the total corruption of the institution of marriage and freedom to kill a baby before it can take its first breath. The majority of Americans find that abhorrent and without moral justification.

The fact that your candidate didn't provide a convincing alternative vision for the direction the country should be heading was the real reason he got fewer votes.

"Rush hate" or not, actually its true about Rush and why try to hide it. But the differences here are that we aren't judging him because he takes drugs and had several marriages, thats between him and his God.

But by the same token I wont defend his actions if I dont agree with them. Thats the difference.
Why be a hypocrite about it.

It just seems that there are more "personal" attacks than ever before.

Finding common ground on abortion and gay marriage seems pretty unlikely.

That's because there can be no "common ground" for good and evil.

This doofus doesn't understand the libertarian impulse, or even the politeness impulse, or even the common-sense impulse that leads one to believe that an intrusive federal government is a threat to everyone.

Modernity is an amalgam of heresies, and they begin to take their toll on the birkenstockers. Now comes the cognitive dissonance phase as the emptiness of their lives becomes plain. So expect to hear a great deal about "racism," "homophobia" and other such nonsense words, and nothing at all about gulags, thought control, blasphemy and suchlike "right wing" concerns.

So Rush is a druggie and thrice divorced to boot! He may not even go to church. You would think that the Lefty loonies would adopt him as their mascot. It must be something that he said...

Dear demonrats:

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Granted there are money lovers on both sides, but I have never met a demonrat that did not obsess, lust for and worship money. The demonrat party's prime directive is take from those you don't like, withhold a sizeable finder's fee and shower the remainder upon the "needy" whose votes are for sale to the highest bidder. IF that's moral, then I'm a rocket surgeon.

Why be a hypocrite about it.
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Certainly Rush is no hypocrite. He had A PROBLEM. He admitted it and he fixed it. Nothing like that would have happened from ANYONE on the left -- they don't admit mistakes and discuss their shortcomings because they don't think they have any....and when it comes to personal attacks, the libs made the entire election PERSONAL. That was all they had, all they know how to do, is attack, attack, attack. One of the reasons they lost, big time. And one of the reasons they will lost again in 2008, because they are not willing to clean out the old-line lie-and-spin losers that have taken them down now in two elections.

People have the libs calibrated. They will change or vanish.

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