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Ancient Animal Could Be Human-Ape Ancestor
The Centre Daily Times ^ | Thu, Nov. 18, 2004 | DIEDTRA HENDERSON -- Associated Press

Posted on 11/18/2004 3:41:57 PM PST by Willie Green

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To: narby
You started with this claim:

"the scientific community, which except for an extreemly few folks who make their money selling Creationist literature, is 100% in agreement with Evolutionary theory."

That's crap.

I pointed out the obvious:

"Even among evolutionists there is not 100% agreement."

That's a fact, Jack. Your error in the first place was at "100%," and it's one so common that most evolutionists and creationists share it.

Evolution is a dandy theory, with compelling evidence. When you crawl out on the 100% agreement limb, you fall off into the abyss of dogma.

61 posted on 11/18/2004 11:36:49 PM PST by Fatalis
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To: Ichneumon; VadeRetro
You're missing his point.

Not at all. Vade made the error that evidence regarding evolution, pro or con, informs us as to the mind of God.

Virtually every creationist believes this too.

< a beat >

It's amusing that I just wrote the foregoing before reading your link, because the phrase "the mind of God" comes up in both.

Vade wrote "an intelligent designer wouldn't have to mimic evolution so precisely." That's some grade AAA hubris. And it reprises more of the same from him, via the link you provided:

"In other words, no matter who's doing the designing, for whatever goal, the products of their design are wildly unlikely to fall *exactly* within the many and varied constraints that the results of evolution are."

Vade is lapsing into theology again. Why give ammunition to the ascientific impulses of the creationists?

As a general axiom, scientists make lousy theologians, and preachers make lousy phylogenists.

62 posted on 11/18/2004 11:59:04 PM PST by Fatalis
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To: Ichneumon

[It's very hard to identify ancestors in the fossil record," Strait cautioned.]
I agree. That is because there aren't any.

That would be a neat trick -- has each generation been hatched anew from fairy eggs, then?

Under "C" in the dictionary for Creation. In Genesis in the Bible its called Creation.


63 posted on 11/19/2004 12:08:47 AM PST by taxesareforever
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To: Don Corleone

"And in related news, -- Generalíssimo Francisco Franco is still dead!"


64 posted on 11/19/2004 2:27:10 AM PST by dread78645 (Truth is always the right answer)
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To: taxesareforever
[That would be a neat trick -- has each generation been hatched anew from fairy eggs, then?]

Under "C" in the dictionary for Creation. In Genesis in the Bible its called Creation.

So you're claiming that every generation has been Created from scratch? Fascinating. Has no one told you about the birds and the bees yet?

Hint: While you've got your dictionary out, look up the meaning of "each generation", and also ponder the logical implications of your claim that there "aren't any" ancestors.

Keep trying, I'm sure you'll get it eventually.

65 posted on 11/19/2004 3:07:44 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Fatalis; VadeRetro
Vade made the error that evidence regarding evolution, pro or con, informs us as to the mind of God.

He said no such thing.

Vade wrote "an intelligent designer wouldn't have to mimic evolution so precisely." That's some grade AAA hubris.

Don't be ridiculous. It's a statement of obvious fact. An intelligent designer wouldn't *HAVE* to mimic evolution precisely. Emphasis on "have to" -- a designer of life forms would not be restricted to only the sorts of results which evolution could produce. This holds true even if the designer is not omnipotent and is just some scientist in a lab somewhere. In the same way, an "intelligent designer" of computer programs (i.e., a computer programmer) "wouldn't have to mimic" the results of a genetic algorithm when he produces his programs, he would be free to write it any way he wants.

I'm baffled that you would find fault with this assertion, since it's so self-evident.

And it reprises more of the same from him, via the link you provided: "In other words, no matter who's doing the designing, for whatever goal, the products of their design are wildly unlikely to fall *exactly* within the many and varied constraints that the results of evolution are."

Same inarguable point. So what's your complaint?

Vade is lapsing into theology again.

No he's not. He's simply stating that intelligent designers (of any type) have more options available to them than do evolutionary processes.

Why give ammunition to the ascientific impulses of the creationists?

This hardly "gives ammunition" to the creationists. On the contrary, it cuts the legs out from under some of their arguments by giving them a hard nut to crack. The question they have to answer is, "of all the myriad ways a hypothetical designer could have made life, why the heck would he/she/it choose to make the results 'evolution-like', if that's not how life actually came about?"

In short, he's pointing out the creationists' "Occam's Razor" problem.

As a general axiom, scientists make lousy theologians, and preachers make lousy phylogenists.

As a general axiom, general axioms don't add much to discussions unless they can be shown to actually apply to the specifics at hand.

66 posted on 11/19/2004 3:25:24 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Fatalis
"Even among evolutionists there is not 100% agreement."

About the mechanisms, not the process.

67 posted on 11/19/2004 3:30:39 AM PST by Junior (FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC)
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To: VadeRetro
"The funny thing, though, is how those extinct animals when we find them continue to further outline what looks like a phylogenetic tree of life"

When one already has a bias toward a 'tree of life' theory, one tends to make successive finds fit that paradigm.

68 posted on 11/19/2004 5:56:24 AM PST by MEGoody (Way to go, America! 4 more years!)
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To: Ichneumon; taxesareforever
Hint: While you've got your dictionary out, look up the meaning of "each generation", and also ponder the logical implications of your claim that there "aren't any" ancestors.

One can't assume that things have always worked as now. In the Bible babies seem to come from people "knowing" each other, just as back in the 1930s babies came from "makin' whoopee."

69 posted on 11/19/2004 7:31:30 AM PST by VadeRetro (A self-reliant conservative citizenry is a better bet than the subjects of an overbearing state. -MS)
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To: Fatalis
Vade made the error that evidence regarding evolution, pro or con, informs us as to the mind of God.

He isn't talking to me. Does He talk to you?

70 posted on 11/19/2004 7:33:43 AM PST by VadeRetro (A self-reliant conservative citizenry is a better bet than the subjects of an overbearing state. -MS)
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To: MEGoody
Or it could just be another extinct animal

Well, yes, since it is an animal and it is extinct, it is an extinct animal.

What's your point?

71 posted on 11/19/2004 7:39:46 AM PST by Modernman (Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. --Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Willie Green
Ancient Animal Could be Animal??
72 posted on 11/19/2004 7:41:21 AM PST by AD from SpringBay (We have the government we allow and deserve.)
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To: Modernman
What's your point?

The point is that creationists consider it a point of virtue to refuse to connect the dots.

73 posted on 11/19/2004 8:14:51 AM PST by PatrickHenry (The all-new List-O-Links for evolution threads is now in my freeper homepage.)
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To: PatrickHenry
The point is that creationists consider it a point of virtue to refuse to connect the dots.

Or they don't like to admit that human beings are animals, too.

74 posted on 11/19/2004 8:19:49 AM PST by Modernman (Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. --Benjamin Franklin)
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To: ThisLittleLightofMine
Why don't they ever put a disclaimer in these articles, stating that these are truths based upon your belief in Darwins theory? They write these as if they were fact rather than fiction.

Well said.

There has never been any "missing link" discovered that proved that one species "evolved," a la Darwinian theory, into another.

If macroevolution were a fact, then there should be many transitional "links" between species, found in nature or in fossil evidence. Despite the Darwinists' periodic hyperventilation over "exciting new finds" every few years, none has ever been found.

75 posted on 11/19/2004 8:25:46 AM PST by shhrubbery!
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To: shhrubbery!
What? None at all?


76 posted on 11/19/2004 8:31:02 AM PST by VadeRetro (A self-reliant conservative citizenry is a better bet than the subjects of an overbearing state. -MS)
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To: MEGoody
When one already has a bias toward a 'tree of life' theory, one tends to make successive finds fit that paradigm.

And then there are people who simply won't see any evidence at all for what they don't want to believe.

77 posted on 11/19/2004 8:33:35 AM PST by VadeRetro (A self-reliant conservative citizenry is a better bet than the subjects of an overbearing state. -MS)
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To: SunkenCiv

LOL! "It's a madhouse! A madhouse!" :)


78 posted on 11/19/2004 9:11:55 AM PST by Fedora
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To: Fedora

:') "...with our hot an eager help."


79 posted on 11/19/2004 9:59:14 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("All I have seen teaches me trust the Creator for all I have not seen." -- Emerson)
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To: Ichneumon; whipitgood
So... You're saying that they might have found a fossil that was never at one time an animal? Fascinating...

Phillip Gosse doesn't get no respect.

80 posted on 11/19/2004 10:10:10 AM PST by Oztrich Boy ("The true character of liberty is independence, maintained by force". - Voltaire)
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