Bin Laden Expert Steps Forward

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/12/60minutes/printable655407.shtml ^ | November 14, 2004

[Age of Reason]

I stopped listening to NPR years ago, since they are so partisan and biased.

Everything is biased.

So I listen to everything I can--however far right or far left--that the opposing biases might cancel each other out, leving me with some measure of truth.

[Max Combined]

"What, you mean like we tried to do during Operation Anaconda?

Wrong answer - the military started applying lessons learned during Anaconda. The point Scheuer made was that those lessons were already known.

If you've been following the battle of Fallujah, you'll have seen that it's American troops providing the security cordon, not locals. Different location, same lesson, right answer."

Nonsense. Operation Anaconda was the effort to get bin Laden in Tora Bora. We did not have the troops in Afghanistan and we had no way of getting them up into those mountains in time to catch bin Laden. Scheuer did not tell us anything we did not already know about the Afghans.

There is no comparison between Tora Bora and Fallujah. Tora Bora occurred shortly after the war began in Afghanistan and we never had the thousands and thousands of troops in Afghanistan that would have been needed to surround Tora Bora. It took us many many months to transfer our troops and equipment from the USA to Kuwait and then into Iraq for the war.

The ground around Fallujah is flat and open. The land in Tora Bora is very difficult mountainous terrain.

There is no comparison between Tora Bora and Fallujah, yet even though American troops were surrounding Fallujah, al-Zarqawi escaped from Fallujah just as surely as did bin Laden did from Tora Bora. American troops in Tora Bora would probably not have kept bin Laden from escaping from Tora Bora.

Scheuer is a loser blowhard. I will trust the judgement of General Franks before I will trust that sniveling appeaser.

[Snapple]

I wouldn't believe that the CIA believes everything in this book. It may have some disinformation in it for the terrorists. WE may not be the real audience.

It has been some time since I looked at it so I forget the thread of the argument.

Read it as if you are a terrrorist and see what you think.

[Max Combined]

"I am simply telling you what has been told to me by friends of mine."

Well, at least you are honest enough to admit that you have no idea of what is meant by coming down hard on the Palestinians. Your Muslim friends are full of crap. The solution to the Middle East is already in process. Israel will finish their fence and pull their settlements out of Gaza and let the Palestinians stew in their own juices. The only leverage the Palestinians have on the Israelis is terrorism and the fence will put an end to that. Eventually, ten or twenty years down the line, the Palestinians will get tired of being shut out of Israel and will make peace.

If your Muslim friends are unhappy with the United States because we support the Israelis right to defend themselves from the terrorism that the Palestinians inflict on Israel, then they can just be unhappy, as far as I am concerned. The idea is to do the right thing, not the popular thing.

[mlocher]

The book, written with the CIA's blessing, is critical of the Bush administration's counterterrorism policy, and was viewed by some at the White House as a thinly veiled attempt by the CIA to undermine the president's reelection.

let's see. the article says the last time they could have gotten bin laden (out of at least 10 attempts) was during the clinton administration. cbs continues to blame bush for clinton's ineptness.

[Howlin]

Excuse me?

[Luis Gonzalez]

Bin Laden Expert Steps Forward

[killjoy]

The problem is not Israel vs. the Palestinians it's Jews vs. Arabs/Muslims.

I feel compelled to state that the vast majority of Jews and Arabs within 'greater' Israel live in peace with each other. The problem is with a minority of fanatics on both sides.

By the way, Osama Bin Laden's anger towards us was our presence in Saudi Arabia. It had nothing to do with our support of Israel.

My previous comments were not about Bin Laden, but are based on conversations I have had with friends from Lebanon, Turkey, Egypt, and Oman.

[killjoy]

Israel will [...] pull their settlements out of Gaza

Yes, this is exactly what needs to be done as well as the settlements in the west bank.

If your Muslim friends are unhappy with the United States because we support the Israelis right to defend themselves from the terrorism that the Palestinians inflict on Israel

That is not what I said. You are quite good at taking things completely out of context.

[Age of Reason]

Of course this is part of it, but as it has been explained to me, there is much more hatred towards the British over this than towards us. Afterall, they were the ones who put them there to begin with.

But the immediate fight of any revolutionaries would be against whoever is currently helping their government suppress the revolutionaries.

I seem to remember all but one of the 911 hijackers were from the same place--and it was not Palistine.

[Max Combined]

If the objective was to kill or capture Bin Laden or at least so disrupt his operations so that he could not launch any further terrorists attacks on the scale such as those perpetrated on 911, then we have succeeded very well. That was the reason for launching the attack on Afghanistan, not to overthrow the Taliban or to kill bin Laden.

"Scheuer's point is that we could have done better, and we could be doing better."

Scheuer is a Monday Morning Quarterback of the vilest sort. In a perfect world, everything would be perfect, but we do not live in a perfect world. The perfect is the enemy of the good enough.

If we would have waited to attack Afghanistan until after we had airlifted in the thousands of troops and tons of equipment needed to surround Tora Bora, then bin Laden may well have been long gone lone before we were ready to attack him.

If we had gone to the big footprint model of using all US troops to carry out the war in Afghanistan, we may well have provoked a negative response from the non-Taliban population of Afghanistan and become bogged down in a long war along the lines of that which did the Soviets in.

[Age of Reason]

I wouldn't believe that the CIA believes everything in this book. It may have some disinformation in it for the terrorists. WE may not be the real audience.

Excellent point.

[Max Combined]

"Since you don't appear to be willing to avail yourself of the actual material under discussion (Imperial Hubris), could you tell me why I'm obliged to devote a good portion of my time to elucidating the matter for you?"

I've read the transcripts of Scheuer's two interviews posted on this thread and Frum's article about Imperial Hubris. If you are not able to mount an intelligent defense of the appeaser, Scheuer, in your own words, admit defeat and wander off with your tail between your legs.

[Age of Reason]

WE may not be the real audience.

Unless perhaps it is misinformation for the American public, instead.

[killjoy]

I seem to remember all but one of the 911 hijackers were from the same place--and it was not Palistine.

At the same time, the entire Middile East is not represented by the 911 hijackers. If it was, you and I would probably not be here now.

[Max Combined]

"I do know until this is solved, don't expect peace and expect anti-American feelings to continue if not grow."

And if Muslims keep committing terrorist acts against non-Muslims all around the world, like they are doing in Israel, Russia, Thailand, Holland, Iraq, and elsewhere, Muslims can expect anti-Muslim feeling to continue to grow.

[JustDoItAlways]

I like the Monday morning quarter-back analogy, but think about it, he is Monday morning quarter-backing himself. lol.

But just think about how dumb his statement is about it being no problem taking out the United Arab Emirate princes along with OBL.

On one hand, he is saying we are pissing off the arabs so bad that they are attacking us now. On the next, he says we should have killed a bunch of arab princes from a state that has lots and lots of money with which to finance terrorism and to whip up anti-US support.

Sorry, no CIA agent in his right mind would kill UAE princes (who are on our side by the way) as collateral damage.

The guy is just way too dumb to be a CIA agent, let alone be the guy in charge of getting OBL. The CIA cannot have anywhere near the number of talented and intelligent people that are needed if this guy rose in the ranks at all.

[killjoy]

And if Muslims keep committing terrorist acts against non-Muslims all around the world, like they are doing in Israel, Russia, Thailand, Holland, Iraq, and elsewhere, Muslims can expect anti-Muslim feeling to continue to grow.

Of course, but this is a tangent and not what we were talking about.

[Hoplite]

Nonsense. Operation Anaconda was the effort to get bin Laden in Tora Bora. We did not have the troops in Afghanistan and we had no way of getting them up into those mountains in time to catch bin Laden. Scheuer did not tell us anything we did not already know about the Afghans.

Fine - have it your way.

The battle of Tora Bora was in December of 2001.
Operation Anaconda was in March of 2002.

Scheuer's whole thesis, which you're illustrating beautifully here, is that we haven't used the information already available to the best effect, not that he's revealing some new information.

Now STFU or go bother someone else with your ignorant prattle.

[Max Combined]

"I think they hate us because we help to prop-up Mideast governments that revolutionaries would like to overthrow."

Yes, and when we, in the spirit of Jimmy Carter and Scheuer, pull the rug out from under our allies in the Mideast, like the Shah in Iran, the Islamic revolutionaries are eternally grateful for our assistance. Isn't Iran a much better place for America, for the Iranian people, for the stability of the Mideast, and for the world, what with its soon to be atomic bomb, than it would have been under the Shah?