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To: Kaslin; All
This Marine is pretty well screwed. I watched the footage of the incident, and it's not good. Flame away, but here's my take, based on what the ROE was when I left Iraq in May.

You can defend yourself if you feel threatened and can show cause for it. For instance, had I not been specifically warned that Iraqis could bear AK-47s and stand on their roofs watching our convoys, I guarentee I'd be up on charges. It sure looks threatening. A lot of stuff Iraqis do is unnerving and seems hostile, BUT, unless they point a weapon at you, you CAN NOT engage with lethal force. The military will prosecute you to hell and back if you disobey, and they're very clear on that.

The Marine, by his own words, states that he thinks the man is faking death, and then shot him. That simply doesn't meet the criteria to engage.

I'd be scared of booby traps and fake surrenders. I've entered strange houses in the middle of the night, and had to make split second decisions on whether or not to shoot someone suddenly appearing 3 feet away from me. It's stressful as hell, and $h#t happens.

That having been said, engaging a prone detainee who's been laying wounded in the same spot for 24 hours because 'he's playing dead' while an NBC cameraman is standing 10 feet away from you is an all around bad move. I'm normally 100% against Monday morning quarterbacking, especially from my now cozy armchair, but they've got the guy dead to rights on video. There definitely still needs to be an investigation, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence so far that this guy was justified in engaging the detainee.

431 posted on 11/15/2004 6:34:07 PM PST by Steel Wolf (There's only three kinds of people in this world...)
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To: Steel Wolf; All
Just to clarify, I'm not saying I agree with the ROE or disagree, since it's not my place to say. I'm just pointing out the reality troops deal with every day, trying to balance the need for their own survival and mission accomplishment versus the rules of engagement.

I know a lot of people think 'this is war', but it ain't. It's a heavily armed PR campaign, and the military isn't looking to fall on the sword for anyone who screws up on camera.

437 posted on 11/15/2004 6:37:58 PM PST by Steel Wolf (There's only three kinds of people in this world...)
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To: Steel Wolf

I still think he did nothing wrong. It is not worth dead americans.

Its great that we hold ourselves to such high standards, but there were booby trapped bodies all over the place.

It will get hundreds, if not thousands of our countrymen killed if the media is allowed to run with this.

It will also ecourage more bombing, innocents be damned....


438 posted on 11/15/2004 6:40:11 PM PST by fooman (Get real with Kim Jung Mentally Ill about proliferation)
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To: Steel Wolf
"I'm normally 100% against Monday morning quarterbacking, especially from my now cozy armchair, but they've got the guy dead to rights on video."

You shouldn't start the Monday morning thing now. You have no idea what the Marine in question knew at the time. How do you know whether the terrorist in question had been lying there for 24hours or 2 minutes? The Marine may have been told everyone in there was dead. They certainly looked dead. Then one starts to move. You obviously don't need a lecture from me about combat situations. I just want to remind you that a video clip tells very little of a story and certainly isn't enough to pass final judgement.

458 posted on 11/15/2004 6:52:20 PM PST by Rokke
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To: Steel Wolf; Chieftain; Naomi4

Just listened to Ollie North. He handled it very well. I also agree with your post and the implications you shared.

This is when we must support our troops even more! The MSM will just blow this up and as Ollie said, make it all so exaggerated that all the good our troops do in sacrificing for our country and the honorable and difficult way they have had to fight will be minimized or negated.

This is war. Al jazeera is going to lie anyways, and I am so disgusted that our MSM is right behind them. But we showed the world we support our troops by putting Bush back in office and making sure that Traitor Kerry was exposed!

I think the idea of contacting our representatives to say we support our troops and support this young Marine for what he has given is a good one.


460 posted on 11/15/2004 6:52:40 PM PST by Recovering Ex-hippie (Taking vitamins to handle the MSM)
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To: Steel Wolf

Can we be sure the prone "insurgent" was alive before being shot?


465 posted on 11/15/2004 6:55:23 PM PST by cake_crumb (UN Resolutions=Very Expensive, Very SCRATCHY Toilet Paper)
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To: Steel Wolf
"That having been said, engaging a prone detainee who's been laying wounded in the same spot for 24 hours because 'he's playing dead' while an NBC cameraman is standing 10 feet away from you is an all around bad move."

Well said (see my post 391). Folks, this incident has nothing to do with the blond that was found dead with no limbs...it has nothing to do with American civilians that were decapitated...it has nothing to do with Kerry shooting some kid in the back 35 years ago...it has nothing to do with the contractors that were hung from the bridge. It has everything to do with being "civilized". Hopefully, we will never stoop to the "low" of these savages. I think if you read Steel Wolf's post 431, the military absolutely does not condone this type of action. I think we should heed Rush's advice: para-phasing, "if we think like terrorists, we become one of them". It would be fine with me if our great "fighting machine" took out 1200 more terrorists this week, but let's do it with proper military ROE.
525 posted on 11/15/2004 7:54:09 PM PST by gs-conserv
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