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Abortion debate becomes clearer as ultrasound images improve
St. Paul Pioneer Press ^ | 11/11/04 | ZEV CHAFETS

Posted on 11/11/2004 1:16:35 PM PST by Caleb1411

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To: Coleus

ping


41 posted on 11/12/2004 2:12:58 PM PST by milford421
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To: Caleb1411
At 18 weeks you can easily discern fingers and facial features.

I've got a 12-week ultrasound where you can clearly see a hand and all five fingers...

42 posted on 11/12/2004 2:14:47 PM PST by kevkrom (Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. But it rocks absolutely, too.)
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To: FreeperinRATcage
How about the Holocaust? Are those images too terrible to view? Do you think you might convince a 'moderate' anti-Semite without showing them such images? If their heart is hard, no amount of reasoned debate will sway them.

Soft soap is worthless.

43 posted on 11/12/2004 2:18:27 PM PST by O.C. - Old Cracker (When the cracker gets old, you wind up with Old Cracker. - O.C.)
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To: trubluolyguy

Does the child who is the product of a rape or incest have less rights than one produced by consensual sex? In the case of a conception from rape or incest, the damage is already done to the mother, why compound her emotional problems by murdering the child?


44 posted on 11/12/2004 2:21:17 PM PST by O.C. - Old Cracker (When the cracker gets old, you wind up with Old Cracker. - O.C.)
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To: Caleb1411; Coleus
Up until 3 1/2 years ago I was a fiscal conservative, foreign policy hawk, and social moderate. To be honest, I couldn't have cared less about abortion.

Then my wife told me she was pregnant. Still nothing on the abortion screen. I dutifully trudged to the first ultrasound and there was my beautiful baby boy as a tiny speck-and he was just....words can't describe how I felt watching him trying to live, yearning to survive-there was nothing wrong with him. He was just so tiny and helpless, totally depending on us to see him through(picture a 6'3 250 lb.er tearing up while typing).

I felt sky high until I realized with a shudder how absolutely wrong and despicable my prior position was. I am so sorry for my past views.

45 posted on 11/12/2004 2:42:36 PM PST by MattinNJ (Only Arnold would have the stones to say Nixon was the reason he was a Republican.)
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To: O.C. - Old Cracker

You, of course, are entitled to your opinion and your own methods. You should know,however, that the methods you espouse tend to turn people off and cause revulsion (understandable, its a revolting topic). This just causes avoidence of your message.

If your intent is to prove your righteousness with anger and retribution, then you are on the right course.

If your intent, however, is to persuade otehrs into seeing LIFE, not death, then acceptanceof the message of lifeshould be the ultimate goal for life's sake, not for the sake of proving them wrong.


46 posted on 11/12/2004 7:58:48 PM PST by FreeperinRATcage (I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for every thing I do. - R. A. Heinlein)
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To: kx9088
I understand. They were looking for 3 particular faults. None were evident, but in one shot his face is clearly vi sable; truly bugged by this "thing" continually probing him. Before that, he was sucking his thumb!! New technology is REALLY amazing!! BTW, if you don't mind me asking, what is your new baby's name?
47 posted on 11/12/2004 10:13:59 PM PST by used2BDem (Navy Vet (Navy Mom))
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To: FreeperinRATcage
Labeling others who disagree with you as self-righteous is less than persuasive.

How would you instruct others about the effects of the Holocaust in Nazi Germany?

48 posted on 11/13/2004 7:18:06 AM PST by O.C. - Old Cracker (When the cracker gets old, you wind up with Old Cracker. - O.C.)
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To: gloriapoole
Did you write this spectacular article "Abortion Debate becomes clearer as ultrasound images improve"?

Just catching up with this thread after a few days' absence. I certainly would be proud to have written this article, but Zev Chafets is the author.

49 posted on 11/13/2004 7:54:58 AM PST by Caleb1411
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To: Coleus

Thanks for the links. In this life-versus-death fight, knowledge is a formidable weapon.


50 posted on 11/13/2004 7:56:10 AM PST by Caleb1411
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To: MattinNJ; BibChr; rhema; MHGinTN
Up until 3 1/2 years ago I was a fiscal conservative, foreign policy hawk, and social moderate. To be honest, I couldn't have cared less about abortion. Then my wife told me she was pregnant. Still nothing on the abortion screen. I dutifully trudged to the first ultrasound and there was my beautiful baby boy as a tiny speck-and he was just....words can't describe how I felt watching him trying to live, yearning to survive-there was nothing wrong with him. He was just so tiny and helpless, totally depending on us to see him through(picture a 6'3 250 lb.er tearing up while typing). I felt sky high until I realized with a shudder how absolutely wrong and despicable my prior position was. I am so sorry for my past views.

What a great, powerful testimony. I pray you have countless opportunities to share it.

51 posted on 11/13/2004 8:02:05 AM PST by Caleb1411
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To: Caleb1411

JEREMIAH- Chapter I Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Proverbs 6-16-17 These six things doth the Lord hate; yea seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying toung, and hands that shed INNOCENT BLOOD. LunaRed


52 posted on 11/13/2004 8:31:42 AM PST by LunaRed
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To: O.C. - Old Cracker

I don't draw a comparison between abortion and the Holocaust. To me, thats meaningless rhetoric.

But also, for me, what was most compelling was seeing the items the murdered left behind.


53 posted on 11/13/2004 2:36:18 PM PST by FreeperinRATcage (I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for every thing I do. - R. A. Heinlein)
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Fetal Development

Ironically, it has been after the legalization of abortion in America that science has made its greatest progress in understanding the unborn child. With that understanding have come such realities as fetal surgery, which began in the '80's.

There is no question about when human life begins. 

The widely used medical textbook The Developing Human, Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th Edition, Moore, Persaud, Saunders, 1998, states at page 2 that "The intricate processes by which a baby develops from a single cell are miraculous .... This cell [the zygote] results from the union of an oocyte [egg] and sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being ...." At page 18 this theme is repeated: "Human development begins at fertilization [emphasis in original] ...."

Judge Michael J. Noonan ruled as follows in a New Jersey case based on a man's efforts to save his unborn child from being aborted: "…based upon the undisputed medical testimony by arguably the foremost authority in genetics in the world, I found that human life begins as conception; and that Roe vs. Wade permits a legal execution of that human being." (MUNICIPAL COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION - MORRIS COUNTY CRIMINAL ACTION DOCKET NO. C1771, ET SEQ. STATE OF NEW JERSEY V. ALEXANDER LOCE, et als. DEFENDANTS APRIL 29, 1991 HONORABLE MICHAEL J. NOONAN)

Dr. Jerome Lejeune, "Father of Modern Genetics" and discoverer of the cause of Down's Syndrome, stated, "To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion . . . it is plain experimental evidence."

Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman, Department of Genetics at Mayo Clinic, stated, "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception."

Sir William Liley, a key pioneer of fetal therapy, wrote a famous article in 1972, The Foetus as a Personality, in which he shows us why we have moved away from the view of the fetus as an inert, unformed passenger awaiting arrival at the destination of life, and have seen that the fetus is a splendidly functioning human, full of vigor and very much in command of the pregnancy.

Men and women of science might often approve of abortion, but that is a judgment about the value of human life, not about the scientific fact that human life exists. We present to you below some of the visual evidence that, indeed, we have a brother, a sister, in the womb.

Click here for pictures of the developing baby.

Click below to listen to the heartbeat of an unborn child.

      Heartbeat at:  9.5 weeks; 11.5 weeks; 15 weeks; 26 weeks; 32 weeks (All ages noted here are LMP; therefore the baby's age from fertilization is actually two weeks younger than the number. These heart tones were recorded through a Doppler speaker by Dr. David M. Ramsey, III.)

Click here for pictures of aborted babies.

Diary of an Unborn Child

"Ultrasound on the Web"

Ultrasound on the Web:

One of the reasons abortion continues is that the victims are largely unseen.

Yet in our day, they have become more visible than ever before, thanks to a wide variety of imaging techniques that allow us not only to view, but also to diagnose and operate on the unborn child.

Ultrasound is one of those imaging techniques. Following are some links that will help you to understand this technique.

www.ob-ultrasound.net (a comprehensive guide to obstetric ultrasound)

www.medison.com (3D ultrasound)

Siemens Medical Systems

12-week old baby girl

Soundwave Images (Shari Richard)

Medical Gallery of Ultrasound Photos

For those who support the so-called "right to choose," a key question is whether or not they are willing to let the woman see what she is choosing to destroy.

Note: While these pictures are posted freely on the Web for all to see, they are still the property of the owners, and so it is not OK to copy the pictures without their owner's permission.


54 posted on 11/13/2004 10:29:46 PM PST by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, algae)
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