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The Myth Behind "Separation of Church and State"
Liberty Counsel ^ | 2000 | Mathew D. Staver

Posted on 11/08/2004 11:59:43 AM PST by Tailgunner Joe

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21 posted on 12/20/2004 1:10:40 PM PST by jla
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To: jla

bttt


22 posted on 12/21/2005 6:57:41 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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Comment #23 Removed by Moderator

To: FrankWoods
Massachusetts Constitution; First Part, Article II (1780) "It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe..."

Massachusetts Constitution; First Part, Article II (1780) "The governor shall be chosen annually; and no person shall be eligible to this office, unless...he shall declare himself to be of the Christian religion."

Massachusetts Constitution; Chapter VI, Article I (1780) "[All persons elected to State office or to the Legislature must] make and subscribe the following declaration, viz. 'I,_____, do declare, that I believe the Christian religion, and have firm persuasion of its truth..'.."

Pennsylvania Constitution; Declaration of Rights II (1776) "...Nor can any man, who acknowledges the being of a God, be justly deprived or abridged to any civil right as a citizen, on account of his religious sentiments or peculiar mode of religious worship."

Pennsylvania Constitution; Frame of Government, Section 10 (1776) "And each member [of the legislature]...shall make and subscribe the following declaration, viz.: 'I do believe in one God, the creator and governor of the universe, the rewarder to the good and the punisher of the wicked. And I do acknowledge the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by Divine inspiration.'"

Pennsylvania Constitution; Article IX, Section 4 (1790) "that no person, who acknowledges the being of a God, and a future state of rewards and punishments, shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this commonwealth."

South Carolina Constitution; Article XXXVIII (1778) "That all persons and religious societies who acknowledge that there is one God, and a future state of rewards and punishments, and that God is publicly to be worshipped, shall be freely tolerated. The Christian Protestant religion shall be deemed...to be the established religion of this State."

Vermont Constitution; Frame of Government, Section 9 (1777) "And each member [of the legislature],...shall make and subscribe the following declaration, viz.: 'I do believe in one god, the Creator and Governor of the universe, the rewarder of the good and punisher of the wicked. And I do acknowledge the scriptures of the old and new testament to be given by divine inspiration, and own and profess the protestant religion.'"

24 posted on 07/07/2006 1:45:26 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe

*


25 posted on 07/07/2006 1:49:04 PM PDT by Sam Cree (Delicacy, precision, force)
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To: FrankWoods; Tailgunner Joe
At the time of the writing of the constitution, 12 of the 13 colonies had SPECIFIC laws on the religious requirements for officeholders. They ranged from the mild (belief in God) to the specific (belief in the Trinity) and kept out Catholics, Jews, Anabaptists, atheists, etc., in their respective states. The First Amendment was specifically written to protect the states from the feds telling them that they CAN'T continue with religious barriers.

So, it was really enacted to ensure the mixing of state and church, the opposite of what we're taught in school. And, in case you're curious, Virginia was the only state w/o the requirement, but they were on their way to getting one in place. And, Massachusetts was the last state to get rid of these laws (1831, I believe).

26 posted on 07/07/2006 1:57:25 PM PDT by Pharmboy (Democrats lie because they must)
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To: FrankWoods; Tailgunner Joe
...and here's the source (great book written by a law prof at Yale):


27 posted on 07/07/2006 2:01:01 PM PDT by Pharmboy (Democrats lie because they must)
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To: Pharmboy
Indeed, the First Amendment was intended to protect state establishments of religion from any federal interference, but judicial activists "evolved" our "living, breathing" Constitution to make it mean the exact opposite.
28 posted on 07/07/2006 2:02:59 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Yep...I saw Prof Amar give a talk on God and the Constitution and my mouth hung open when he related these facts about religious barriers and the states. I bought the book and was happy I did. Even though he leans liberal, he is that rare lib, dedicated to historical accuracy. Thansk for posting this, TJ.


29 posted on 07/07/2006 2:05:50 PM PDT by Pharmboy (Democrats lie because they must)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Article 11 from the Treaty of Tripoli, signed November 4th, 1796:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

The treaty was ratified by Congress and signed by then-President John Adams, who proudly proclaimed it to the country.

30 posted on 07/07/2006 2:23:33 PM PDT by Zeroisanumber (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: Zeroisanumber

As even a casual examination of the annotated translation of 1930 shows, the Barlow translation is at best a poor attempt at a paraphrase or summary of the sense of the Arabic; and even as such its defects throughout are obvious and glaring. Most extraordinary (and wholly unexplained) is the fact that Article 11 of the Barlow translation, with its famous phrase, "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion," does not exist at all. There is no Article 11. The Arabic text which is between Articles 10 and 12 is in form a letter, crude and flamboyant and withal quite unimportant, from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha of Tripoli. How that script came to be written and to be regarded, as in the Barlow translation, as Article 11 of the treaty as there written, is a mystery and seemingly must remain so. Nothing in the diplomatic correspondence of the time throws any light whatever on the point ...evidence of the erroneous character of the Barlow translation has been in the archives of the Department of State since perhaps 1800 or thereabouts; for in the handwriting of James Leander Cathcart is the statement ...that the Barlow translation is "extremely erroneous." - Miller, Hunter. "The Avalon Project at Yale Law School: The Barbary Treaties: Tripoli 1796. http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796n.htm


31 posted on 07/07/2006 2:40:35 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Zeroisanumber
The Avalon Project at Yale Law School

There are four documents in the Department of State file of this treaty.

The first to be noted is that which contains the original treaty. It is a book in the literal sense. There are fourteen pages of Arabic text;

As even a casual examination of the annotated translation of 1930 shows, the Barlow translation is at best a poor attempt at a paraphrase or summary of the sense of the Arabic; and even as such its defects throughout are obvious and glaring. Most extraordinary (and wholly unexplained) is the fact that Article 11 of the Barlow translation, with its famous phrase, "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion," does not exist at all. There is no Article 11. The Arabic text which is between Articles 10 and 12 is in form a letter, crude and flamboyant and withal quite unimportant, from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha of Tripoli. How that script came to be written and to be regarded, as in the Barlow translation, as Article 11 of the treaty as there written, is a mystery and seemingly must remain so. Nothing in the diplomatic correspondence of the time throws any light whatever on the point

A further and perhaps equal mystery is the fact that since 1797 the Barlow translation has been trustfully and universally accepted as the just equivalent of the Arabic. Its text was not only formally proclaimed as such but has been continuously printed and reprinted as such; and yet evidence of the erroneous character of the Barlow translation has been in the archives of the Department of State since perhaps 1800 or thereabouts; for in the handwriting of James Leander Cathcart is the statement quoted above that the Barlow translation is "extremely erroneous"; and while the Italian translation of the Arabic text on which that endorsement appears, presents its own linguistic difficulties, largely owing to its literal rendering and its consequent non-literary character as Italian, it is none the less in essence a reasonable equivalent of the Arabic. Indeed, allowing for the crudeness of the original Arabic and the changes which always result from a retranslation, it may be said that a rendering of the Italian translation into English gives a result which is in general not dissimilar from the English translation of Doctor Snouck Hurgronje of 1930; and of course the most cursory examination of the Italian translation would show (assuming the Italian to be even an approximation of the Arabic), that the Barlow translation, as Cathcart wrote, was "extremely erroneous"; but nothing indicating that the Italian translation was even consulted has been found, and it does not appear that it was ever before 1930 put into English. Some account of the Italian translation as a document is given above.

32 posted on 07/07/2006 2:49:04 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If you think you know what's coming next....You don't know Jack.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Excellent article;

The first nine amendments of the Bill of Rights are most certainly, if read by most anyone with some common understanding of the English language, aimed squarely at protecting the rights of the citizens.

The Ninth Amendment states that no matter what the order of the rights named in the Constitution, whether it is the first or the last, their enumeration doesn't matter as to their relevance or importance.

You stated;

"This results not only from the provisions that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion [First Amendment], but from that also which reserves to the States the powers not delegated to the United States [Tenth Amendment]. Certainly no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to the General [i.e., federal] Government. It must then rest with the States, as far as it can be in any human authority."


Very well stated...

The Tenth Amendment in the Bill of Rights states:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to THE PEOPLE.

Imagine that!!! Granting full power to the (1)states or (2)the people on any matter that is not clearly delegated by the Constitution through pre-existing, agreed upon law(Constitution) to the Federal Government, which, by the way, can only be changed by a 3/4 majority vote of...

GUESS WHO!!!!

The STATES, which are controlled by, THE PEOPLE...

So why has this gotten so out of hand??

Maybe we all need to remind those on Capitol Hill of the Tenth Amendment.
33 posted on 07/07/2006 3:20:31 PM PDT by BedRock ("A country that doesn't enforce it's laws will live in chaos, & will cease to exist.")
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: FrankWoods

Some did and some didn't. That's why each state was allowed to decide for themselves. It's called Federalism.


35 posted on 07/07/2006 4:40:24 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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Comment #36 Removed by Moderator

To: FrankWoods
If you don't like the references to religion in your state's Constitution, you are free to go join your voice with the people of some other state which is more in line with your values, or lack thereof.
37 posted on 07/07/2006 4:43:39 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: FrankWoods

Please see posts 31 and 32. The "translation" of that treaty is bogus, in fact it's an outright fabrication. No such clause was ever ratified.


39 posted on 07/07/2006 4:54:05 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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Comment #40 Removed by Moderator


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