The Myth Behind "Separation of Church and State"

Liberty Counsel ^ | 2000 | Mathew D. Staver

[GiovannaNicoletta]

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[Just mythoughts]

Great post. Liberals do like to build 'walls' for their self protection and promotion. Those walls of Jericho come to mind.

[Vision]

Wanna watch a liberal cry. Show them these letters. The only two letters with anything to do with a "separation". The first is a letter from a Danbury minister to Jefferson, then Jefferson's reply. Basically the minister is concerned the new government is powerful enough to start making laws effecting religion. Jefferson says there is a separation, and the government cannot legislate on religious issues.


The address of the Danbury Baptists Association in the state of

Connecticut, assembled October 7, 1801. To Thomas Jefferson,

Esq., President of the United States of America.

Sir,

Among the many million in America and Europe who rejoice in your

election to office; we embrace the first opportunity which we

have enjoyed in our collective capacity, since your inauguration,

to express our great satisfaction, in your appointment to the

chief magistracy in the United States: And though our mode of

expression may be less courtly and pompous than what many others

clothe their addresses with, we beg you, sir, to believe that

none are more sincere.



Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious

liberty--that religion is at all times and places a matter

between God and individuals--that no man ought to suffer in name,

person, or effects on account of his religious opinions--that the

legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to

punish the man who works ill to his neighbors; But, sir, our

constitution of government is not specific. Our ancient charter

together with the law made coincident therewith, were adopted as

the basis of our government, at the time of our revolution; and

such had been our laws and usages, and such still are; that

religion is considered as the first object of legislation; and

therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of

the state) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable

rights; and these favors we receive at the expense of such

degrading acknowledgements as are inconsistent with the rights of

freemen. It is not to be wondered at therefore; if those who seek

after power and gain under the pretense of government and

religion should reproach their fellow men--should reproach their

order magistrate, as a enemy of religion, law, and good order,

because he will not, dare not, assume the prerogatives of Jehovah

and make laws to govern the kingdom of Christ.



Sir, we are sensible that the president of the United States is

not the national legislator, and also sensible that the national

government cannot destroy the laws of each state; but our hopes

are strong that the sentiments of our beloved president, which

have had such genial effect already, like the radiant beams of

the sun, will shine and prevail through all these states and all

the world, till hierarchy and tyranny be destroyed from the

earth. Sir, when we reflect on your past services, and see a glow

of philanthropy and good will shining forth in a course of more

than thirty years we have reason to believe that America's God

has raised you up to fill the chair of state out of that goodwill

which he bears to the millions which you preside over. May God

strengthen you for your arduous task which providence and the

voice of the people have called you to sustain and support you

enjoy administration against all the predetermined opposition of

those who wish to raise to wealth and importance on the poverty

and subjection of the people.



And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you

at last to his heavenly kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious

Mediator.

Signed in behalf of the association, Nehemiah Dodge
Ephraim Robbins
Stephen S. Nelson



To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

[DJ MacWoW]

What is so conservative about government authority over the people's religion?

Nothing. And government control is what you are advocating. Atheists use the government to muzzle Christians in public.

[DJ MacWoW]

The only two letters with anything to do with a "separation". The first is a letter from a Danbury minister to Jefferson, then Jefferson's reply. Basically the minister is concerned the new government is powerful enough to start making laws effecting religion. Jefferson says there is a separation, and the government cannot legislate on religious issues.

Tell it to Frank and check his posts. He believes the opposite.

Let me also point out that this thread was 2 years old when Frank called it up to argue for atheism in public life.

[Vision]

He can believe whatever he wants.

[DJ MacWoW]

He can believe whatever he wants.

Yup. And won't win a debate on FR backing atheism. :)

[TET1968]

"This country was established upon the assumption that religion was essential to good government."

"I bet you are all for the first line but let me ask you, what if it was Islamic integration into our government?"

We are there now, just replace " Islamic" with "Godless".

[DJ MacWoW]

The First Prayer in Congress

offered by Jacob Duche
September 7, 1774

O - Lord our Heavenly Father, high and mighty King of kings, and Lord of lords, who dost from thy throne behold all the dwellers on earth and reignest with power supreme and uncontrolled over all the Kingdoms, Empires and Governments; look down in mercy, we beseech thee, on these our American States, who have fled to thee from the rod of the oppressor and thrown themselves on Thy gracious protection, desiring to be henceforth dependent only on Thee, to Thee have they appealed for the righteousness of their cause; to Thee do they now look up for that countenance and support, which Thou alone canst give; take them, therefore, Heavenly Father, under Thy nurturing care; give them wisdom in Council and valor in the field; defeat the malicious designs of our cruel adversaries; convince them of the unrighteousness of their Cause and if they persist in their sanguinary purposes, of own unerring justice, sounding in their hearts, constrain them to drop the weapons of war from their unnerved bands in the day of battle!

Be Thou present, O God of wisdom, and direct the councils of this honroable assembly; enable them to settle things on the best and surest foundation. That the scene of blood may be speedily closed; that order, harmony and peace may be effectually restored, and truth and justice, religion and piety, prevail and flourish amongst The people. Preserve the health of their bodies and vigor of their minds; shower down on them and the millions they here represent, such temporal blessings as Thou seest expedient for them in this world and crown them with everlasting glory in the world to come. All this we ask In the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son and our Savior.

Amen

Reverend Jacob Duche reached the oratorical pinnacle of patriotic preachers with this sermon delivered to the Continental Congress on July 20, 1775. Duche, an Anglican minister in Philadelphia, delivered this fervent plea for heavenly support of the American Revolutionaries when he was chaplain of the Continental Congress. Reverend Duche, who was the brother-in-law of noted composer and patriot Francis Hopkinson, later denounced General Washington and the patriotic cause before fleeing as a loyalist to England in 1777.

US History, Carpenters' Hall

On Wednesday, September 7, 1774, at the delegates' second session, the Reverend Jacob Duché offered the first prayer in Congress. Known for his patriotic fervor, Duché was rector of Christ Church, the city's largest Anglican congregation located just two blocks away at Second & Market Sts. His text was Psalm 35, which begins, "Plead thou my case, O Lord, with them that strive with me, and fight thou against them that fight against me." Poignant in its own right, the psalm spoke directly to the Congress which only the day before received news, later proved incorrect, of British troops firing on Boston civilians. Dr. Duché followed the psalm with ten minutes of spontaneous prayer asking God to support the American cause. One delegate said he was "worth riding 100 miles to hear."

[FarmerW]

ping for later reading

[DJ MacWoW]

Where is this going on, mi amigo querido?

Don't play dumb or coy, it's not cute. Atheists are using the ACLU to muzzle Christians and you (and everyone else) is aware of it.

[DJ MacWoW]

What did I say to cause you to believe that I advocate government authority over religion?

By pushing the bogus separation of church and state.

[trickyricky]

"Amen! Now convince the left of this fact and we are all set!"

When you're done convincing them, start on all the atheists that infest Free Republic.

I wonder how many members here are also members of the ACLU?

[DJ MacWoW]

Ping to 71 in response to 57.

[DJ MacWoW]

Please give us what you believe is the most egregious example of this alleged practice that we might know exactly what you are talking about, mi amigo que hace declaraciones vagas.

Frank, I don't think this "tactic" is cute ok. Nor do I think your language skills are being used cleverly. Make a point and I'll respond.

[jwalsh07]

Please give us what you believe is the most egregious example of this alleged practice that we might know exactly what you are talking about, mi amigo que hace declaraciones vagas.

Government censorship of a citizens speech while freely exercising religion is egregious.

Comprende?