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To: Dr. Scarpetta
I understand why you fled. Some of us choose to stay and fight.

If we abandon all the institutions we treasure as soon as the liberals infiltrate, we will have nothing left.

Some things are worth fighting for.

128 posted on 11/08/2004 9:24:52 AM PST by Protagoras (.Abolishing government schools is the first step in stopping the madness.)
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To: Protagoras
I understand why you fled. Some of us choose to stay and fight. If we abandon all the institutions we treasure as soon as the liberals infiltrate, we will have nothing left. Some things are worth fighting for.

There is a little-known provision in the Presbyterian Church USA that will exempt your church from paying into pastor's abortions. My pastor was unwilling to follow up on that, even though he's a single man and a very big liberal. Has your church followed up on that?

133 posted on 11/08/2004 9:33:06 AM PST by Dr. Scarpetta
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To: Protagoras
Some things are indeed worth fighting for, but the bricks and sticks of the mainline churches are not.

First off, the liberals captured the headquarters and seminaries of the mainline denominations before World War II. The decks of these denominations have been stacked against Bible believers for a very long time on the denominational level. A local congregation may retain autonomy for a while, but the bishop, conference, presbytery, etc., can foist a liberal pastor on a congregation at will. (That all mainline congregations do not have liberal pastors by now is a concession tor realism by the higher level church officials, who recognize that sending a Bolshevik with a backwards collar to a moderate or conservative church would cause many congregants and their donations to leave.) Secondly, UMC, ELCA, ECUSA, PCUSA, RCA, etc., do not permit the congregations to own the church buildings. A restive congregation cannot secede without an expensive court fight, which at best would result in the denomination compelling the church to pay a second time to retain the building.

Besides, were the mainline denominations products or services in the marketplace, they would be marketing disasters. Declining patronage, low intergenerational loyalty, and a diminishing number of outlets characterize the mainline denominations. Let's look at Litchfield County, Connecticut, in the northwest corner of that state. This was predominantly Congregationalist (Puritan) country, with some Episcopalian and Methodist influence. A century ago, a majority of county residents adhered to one of these three denominations, as had been the case since the first white settlement in the 18th Century. As of 2000, the combined membership in said groups represents only 24% of churchgoers and 12.7% of residents of this county. In 1990, the comparable percentages were 25.1% and 14%, respectively. Despite the absence of large industrial towns that tended to attract (mostly Catholic) European immigrants in the 19th and early 20th Centuries, Roman Catholics represent 66% of churchgoers and 34.9% of all county residents as of 2000. (Evangelical Protestant, Lutheran, and Jewish residents each represent less than 2% of Litchfield County's population in 2000.)

The liberal establishment has recognized that the National Council of Churches affiliates cannot deliver the liberal "sacraments" of money and votes. Hence, they largely ignore these churches. In the early and mid 20th Century, liberal clergy like James Pike, Walter Rauschenbusch, Harry Emerson Fosdick, etc., were well known nationally, as much as Billy Sunday or Billy Graham. Other than Bishop Spong and Peter Gomes (who are far from widely famous), few liberal Protestant authors even receive widespread circulation in book stores. Usually, they are buried amidst racks of books by conservative evangelicals like Chuck Swindoll, Kay Arthur, or R.C. Sproul.

Whether dealing with theological issues or with church sociology, the plain truth is that the mainline denominations are in terminal decline.

154 posted on 11/08/2004 11:01:33 AM PST by Wallace T.
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