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To: RayStacy; tpaine
Good morning, Ray and Tom. Thanks for your replies.

Let me try something here:

Check this figure ground pix:

Most folks look at this and see a cup of sorts. They will see the cup no matter how many times they look at the picture.

Look at it long enough, and you can see two heads facing each other.

Some folks can only see the two heads. Some can see the two heads and can also see the cup at will.

My last reply was a verbal figure ground. Let's say that 'shall not be infringed' is the cup.

Then let's say that "the right of the people" are the two faces.

The Second Amendment is a verbal figure ground, for it also has two aspects. One aspect is an injunction against government not to get involved in infringing a particular right of the people.

The other aspect is the government's recognition and acknowledgement that the people had and have the pre-existing right to own and bear arms.

Some folks read the amendment and see only an injunction against government not to infringe on something.

They never see the 'faces' -- the fact that the people have the right to keep and bear arms.

Both aspects of the picture are present in the Second Amendment. One, the injunction against government; Two, acknowledgement and recognition of the people's pre-existing right to keep and bear arms.

Of course, the Founders already knew that, but they thought it wise to put it in writing lest future despots attempt to pursuade the people that the right to keep and bear arms is something that the government, either federal or state (by virtue of Article VI) controls.

But even if the Second Amendment were not written, the law of survival is supreme over all laws.

280 posted on 11/10/2004 10:01:16 AM PST by Eastbound ("Neither a Scrooge nor a Patsy be")
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To: Eastbound
Oops. Error in this paragraph: Should be:

Of course, the Founders already knew that, but they thought it wise to put it in writing lest future despots attempt to pursuade the people that the right to keep and bear arms is something that the government, either federal or state controls. (Deleted Article VI reference.)

281 posted on 11/10/2004 10:07:35 AM PST by Eastbound ("Neither a Scrooge nor a Patsy be")
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To: Eastbound

You are correct on a philosophical level. I believe that the Almighty himself is offended by gun control, PERIOD!!! But THAT IS NOT the question we are debating. The question is -- did the BOR apply to the states before the inc. process? No. It did not. Would I have liked it to? With God as my witness, YES! I can still remember praying for the..., well, let's just say praying for bad things for Gov. Wilder when he had the balls to tell me that I could only buy X number of guns per month. Who, exactly, gave that filthy piece of monkey vomit such a right? Philosophically, of course, nobody did. Legally, however, it was quite constitutional. Just to let you know, whenever I want to tell somebody just how magnificent and great this country was at one time, I show them the old newspaper ad (1931)proving that at one time in this country YOU COULD BUY A GODDAM, F'ING MACHINE GUN THROUGH THE MAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Holy sweet, mother of Jesus! What does that tell you about our people and our government? I mourn for those days.


282 posted on 11/10/2004 10:13:30 AM PST by RayStacy
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