The Electoral College (the Founders debate "The mode of constituting the Executive". LONG!)

A number of articles regarding the electoral college have been posted recently with the strong possibilty of more to come in the near future.

From "to be chosen by the National Legislature for the term of years" to Article. II, Section. 1 of the final product.

7. Resd. that a National Executive be instituted; to be chosen by the National Legislature for the term of years, to receive punctually at stated times, a fixed compensation for the services rendered, in which no increase or diminution shall be made so as to affect the Magistracy, existing at the time of increase or diminution, and to be ineligible a second time; and that besides a general authority to execute the National laws, it ought to enjoy the Executive rights vested in Congress by the Confederation.

It was moved and seconded to proceed to the consideration of the 7th resolution submitted by Mr Randolph, namely

It was then moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the following words--namely

Mr. Wilson renewed his declarations in favor of an appointment by the people. He wished to derive not only both branches of the Legislature from the people, without the intervention of the State Legislatures < but the Executive also; > in order to make them as independent as possible of each other, as well as of the States;

Col. Mason favors the idea, but thinks it impracticable. He wishes however that Mr. W< ilson > might have time to digest it into his own form.--< the clause "to be chosen by the National Legislature" -- was accordingly postponed. -- >

It was moved and seconded to postpone the farther consideration of the resolution, submitted by Mr Randolph, which respects the Executive--in order to take up the consideration of the resolution respecting the second branch of the Legislature.

it was then moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of these words namely

"That the States be divided intoDistricts--and "that the persons, qualified to vote in each District, elect "Members for their respective Districts to be electors of the Executive Magistracy

"That the electors of the Executive Magistracy meet and "they or any of them shall elect by ballot, but not out "of their own Body,Person in whom the "Executive authority of the national government shall be vested." "and on the question to postpone

it passed in the negative [Ayes--2; noes--7; divided--1.] It was then moved and seconded to agree to the words in the resolution, submitted by Mr. Randolph, so as to read

< William Saml. Johnson, from Connecticut, Daniel of St. Thomas Jennifer, from Maryld--& John Lansing Jr. from N. York, took their seats-- >

< It was movd. & 2ded. to postpone ye Resol: of Mr. Randolph respecting the Executive in order to take up the 2d. branch of the Legislature; which being negatived by Mas: Con: Del: Virg: N. C. S. C. Geo: agst. N. Y. Pens. Maryd >

Mr. Wilson made the following motion, < to be substituted for the mode proposed by Mr. Randolph's resolution. >

"that the Executive Magistracy shall be < elected > in the following manner: < That > the States be divided intodistricts: < & that > the persons qualified < to vote in each > district for members of the first branch of the national Legislature electmembers for their respective districts to be electors of the Executive magistracy.that the said Electors of the Executive magistracy meet atand they or anyof them so met shall proceed to elect by ballot, but not out of their own bodypersonin whom the Executive authority of the national Government shall be vested."

Mr. Wilson repeated his arguments in favor of an election without the intervention of the States. He supposed too that this mode would produce more confidence among the people in the first magistrate, than an election by the national Legislature.

Mr. Gerry, opposed the election by the national legislature. There would be a constant intrigue kept up for the appointment. The Legislature & the candidates wd. bargain & play into one another's hands. votes would be given by the former under promises or expectations from the latter, of recompensing them by services to members of the Legislature or to their friends. He liked the principle of Mr. Wilson's motion, but fears it would alarm & give a handle to the State partizans, as tending to supersede altogether the State authorities. He thought the Community not yet ripe for stripping the States of their powers, even such < as > might < not > be requisite for local purposes. He < was > for waiting till people < should > feel more the necessity of it. He seemed to prefer the taking the suffrages of the States instead of Electors, or letting the Legislatures nominate, and the electors appoint. < He was > not clear that the people ought to act directly even in < the > choice of electors, being too little informed of personal characters in large districts, and liable to deceptions.

Mr Williamson could see no advantage in the introduction of Electors chosen by the people who who would stand in the same relation to them as the State Legislatures, whilst the expedient would be attended with great trouble and expence. On the question for agreeing to Mr. Wilson's < substitute, it was negatived: > Massts. no. Cont. no. N.Y. no. Pa. ay. Del. no. Mard. ay. Virga. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geoa. no. [Ayes--2; noes--8.]

On the question for electing the Executive by the national legislature, < for the term of seven years, it was agreed to > Massts. ay. Cont. ay. N.Y. ay. Pena. no. Del. ay. Maryd. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [ayes--8; noes --2.]

In a Committee of the whole House Saturday June 9. 1787. Mr Gorham in the Chair.

A question being taken, on Mr Gerry's motion, to strike out the following words in that clause of the 7th resolution, adopted by the Committee, which respects the appointment of the national Executive

It was moved by Mr Patterson seconded by Mr Brearley to enter on the consideration of theresolution submitted by Mr Randolph.

It was moved and seconded that the Committee do now rise, report a further progress, and request leave to sit again.

Saturday June 9th. < Mr. Luther Martin from Maryland took his Seat > In committee of the whole

Mr. Gerry, according to previous notice given by him, moved "that the National Executive should be elected by the Executives of the States whose proportion of votes should be the same with that allowed to the States in the election of the Senate." If the appointmt. should be made by the Natl. Legislature, it would lessen that independence < of the Executive > which ought to prevail, would give birth to intrigue and corruption between the Executive & Legislature previous to the elections and to partiality in the Executive afterwards to the friends who promoted him. Some other mode therefore appeared to him necessary. He proposed that of appointing by the State Executives as most analogous to the principle observed in electing the other branches of the Natl. Govt.; the first branch being chosen by the people of the States, & the 2d. by the Legislatures of the States; he did not see any objection agst. letting the Executive be appointed by the Executives of the States. He supposed the Executives would be most likely to select the fittest men, and that it would be their interest to support the man of their own choice.

Mr. Randolph urged strongly the inexpediency of Mr. Gerry's mode of appointing the Natl. Executive. The confidence of the people would not be secured by it to the Natl. magistrate. The small States would lose all chance of an appointmt. from within themselves. Bad appointments would be made; the Executives of the States being little conversant with characters not within their own small spheres. The State Executives too notwithstanding their constitutional independence, being in fact dependent on the State Legislatures will generally be guided by the views of the latter, and prefer either favorites within the States, or such as it may be expected will be most partial to the interests of the State. A Natl. Executive thus chosen will not be likely to defend with becoming vigilance & firmness the national rights agst. State encroachments. Vacancies also must happen. How can these be filled? He could not suppose either that the Executives would feel the interest in supporting the Natl. Executive which had been imagined. They will not cherish the great Oak which is to reduce them to paltry shrubs.

On the question for referring the appointment of the Natl. Executive to the State Executives as propd. by Mr. Gerry Massts. no. Cont. no. N.Y. no. N.J. no. Pa. no. Del. divd. Md. no. Va. no. S.C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes-- o; noes--9; divided--I.]

He supposed that in the national legislature there will be a great number of bad men of various descriptions -- these will make a wrong appointment. Besides, an executive thus appointed, will have his partiality in favor of those who appointed him -- that this will not be the case by the effect of his motion, and the executive will by this means be independent of the national legislature, but the appointment by the state executives ought to be made by votes in proportion to their weight in the scale of the representation.

Mr. Randolph opposes the motion. The power vested by it is dangerous -- confidence will be wanting -- the large states will be masters of the election -- an executive ought to have great experience, integrity and activity. The executives of the states cannot know the persons properly qualified as possessing these. An executive thus appointed will court the officers of his appointment, and will relax him in the duties of commander of the militia -- Your single executive is already invested with negativing laws of the state. Will he duly exercise the power? Is there no danger in the combinations of states to appoint such an executive as may be too favorable to local state governments? Add to this the expense and difficulty of bringing the executives to one place to exercise their powers. Can you suppose they will ever cordially raise the great oak, when they must sit as shrubs under its shade?

In a Committee of the whole House Wednesday June 13, 1787. Mr Gorham in the Chair

State of the resolutions submitted to the consideration of the House by the honorable Mr Randolph, as agreed to in a Committee of the whole House.

9. Resolved that a National Executive be instituted to consist of a single person, to be chosen by the Natl. Legislature for the term of seven years, with power to carry into execution the national laws, to appoint to offices in cases not otherwise provided for--to be ineligible a second time, & to be removeable on impeachment and conviction of malpractices or neglect of duty--to receive a fixed stipend by which he may be compensated for the devotion of his time to public service to be paid out of the national Treasury.

Mr. Patterson, laid before the Convention the plan which he said several of the deputations wished to be substituted in place of that proposed by Mr. Randolp. After some little discussion of the most proper mode of giving it a fair deliberation it was agreed that it should be referred to a Committee of the Whole, and that in order to place the two plans in due comparison, the other should be recommitted. At the earnest desire of Mr. Lansing & some other gentlemen, it was also agreed that the Convention should not go into Committee of the whole on the subject till tomorrow, by which delay the friends of the plan proposed by Mr. Patterson wd. be better prepared to explain & support it, and all would have an opportuy of taking copies.

The propositions from N. Jersey moved by Mr. Patterson were in the words following.

4. Resd. that the U. States in Congs. be authorized to elect a federal Executive to consist of ... persons, to continue in office for the term of ... years, to receive punctually at stated times a fixed compensation for their services, in which no increase or diminution shall be made so as to affect the persons composing the Executive at the time of such increase or diminution, to be paid out of the federal treasury; to be incapable of holding any other office or appointment during their time of service and for ... years thereafter; to be ineligible a second time, & removeable by Congs. on application by a majority of the Executives of the several States; that the Executives besides their general authority to execute the federal acts ought to appoint all federal officers not otherwise provided for, & to direct all military operations; provided that none of the persons composing the federal Executive shall on any occasion take command of any troops, so as personally to conduct any enterprise as General, or in other capacity.

Monday June 18. in Committee of the whole. on the propositions of Mr. Patterson & Mr. Randolph.

< On motion of Mr. Dickinson to postpone the 1st. Resolution in Mr. Patterson's plan, in order to take up the following. viz: "that the articles of confederation ought to be revised and amended so as to render the Government of the U. S. adequate to the exigencies, the preservation and the prosperity of the union." the postponement was agreed to by 10 States, Pen: divided. >

Mr. Hamilton, had been hitherto silent on the business before the Convention, partly from respect to others whose superior abilities age & experience rendered him unwilling to bring forward ideas dissimilar to theirs, and partly from his delicate situation with respect to his own State, to whose sentiments as expressed by his Colleagues, he could by no means accede. The crisis however which now marked our affairs, was too serious to permit any scruples whatever to prevail over the duty imposed on every man to contribute his efforts for the public safety & happiness. He was obliged therefore to declare himself unfriendly to both plans. ...

As to the Executive, it seemed to be admitted that no good one could be established on Republican principles. Was not this giving up the merits of the question; for can there be a good Govt. without a good Executive. The English model was the only good one on this subject. The Hereditary interest of the King was so interwoven with that of the Nation, and his personal emoluments so great, that he was placed above the danger of being corrupted from abroad--and at the same time was both sufficiently independent and sufficiently controuled, to answer the purpose of the institution at home. one of the weak sides of Republics was their being liable to foreign influence & corruption. Men of little character, acquiring great power become easily the tools of intermedling neibours. Sweeden was a striking instance. The French & English had each their parties during the late Revolution which was effected by the predominant influence of the former. What is the inference from all these observations? That we ought to go as far in order to attain stability and permanency, as republican principles will admit. Let one branch of the Legislature hold their places for life or at least during good-behaviour. Let the Executive also be for life. He appealed to the feelings of the members present whether a term of seven years, would induce the sacrifices of private affairs which an acceptance of public trust would require, so so as to ensure the services of the best Citizens. On this plan we should have in the Senate a permanent will, a weighty interest, which would answer essential purposes. But is this a Republican Govt. it will be asked? Yes, if all the Magistrates are appointed, and vacancies are filled, by the people, or a process of election originating with the people. He was sensible that an Executive constituted as he proposed would have in fact but little of the power and independence that might be necessary. On the other plan of appointing him for 7 years, he thought the Executive ought to have but little power. He would be ambitious, with the means of making creatures; and as the object of his ambition wd. be to prolong his power, it is probable that in case of a war, he would avail himself of the emergence, to evade or refuse a degradation from his place. An Executive for life has not this motive for forgetting his fidelity, and will therefore be a safer depositary of power. It will be objected probably, that such an Executive will be an elective Monarch, and will give birth to the tumults which characterise that form of Govt. He wd. reply that Monarch is an indefinite term. It marks not either the degree or duration of power. If this Executive Magistrate wd. be a monarch for life--the other propd. by the Report from the Committee of the whole, wd. be a monarch for seven years. The circumstance of being elective was also applicable to both. It had been observed by judicious writers that elective monarchies wd. be the best if they could be guarded agst. the tumults excited by the ambition and intrigues of competitors. He was not sure that tumults were an inseparable evil. He rather thought this character of Elective Monarchies had been taken rather from particular cases than from general principles. The election of Roman Emperors was made by the Army. In Poland the election is made by great rival princes with independent power, and ample means, of raising commotions. In the German Empire, The appointment is made by the Electors & Princes, who have equal motives & means, for exciting cabals & parties. Might < not > such a mode of election be devised among ourselves as will defend the community agst. these effects in any dangerous degree? Having made these observations he would read to the Committee a sketch of a plan which he shd. prefer to either of those under consideration. He was aware that it went beyond the ideas of most members. But will such a plan be adopted out of doors? In return < he would ask > will the people adopt the other plan? At present they will adopt neither. But < he > sees the Union dissolving or already dissolved--he sees evils operating in the States which must soon cure the people of their fondness for democracies--he sees that a great progress has been already made & is still going on in the public mind. He thinks therefore that the people will in time be unshackled from their prejudices; and whenever that happens, they will themselves not be satisfied at stopping where the plan of Mr. R. wd. place them, but be ready to go as far at least as he proposes. He did not mean to offer the paper he had sketched as a proposition to the Committee. It was meant only to give a more correct view of his ideas, and to suggest the amendments which he should probably propose to the plan of Mr. R. in the proper stages of its future discussion. He reads his sketch in the words following: to wit

IV. The supreme Executive authority of the United States to be vested in a Governour to be elected to serve during good behaviour--the election to be made by Electors chosen by the people in the Election Districts aforesaid The authorities & functions of the Executive to be as follows: to have a negative on all laws about to be passed, and the execution of all laws passed, to have the direction of war when authorized or begun; to have with the advice and approbation of the Senate the power of making all treaties; to have the sole appointment of the heads or chief officers of the departments of Finance, War and Foreign Affairs; to have the nomination of all other officers (Ambassadors to foreign Nations included) subject to the approbation or rejection of the Senate; to have the power of pardoning all offences except Treason; which he shall not pardon without the approbation of the Senate.

On the question to agree to the first clause of the 9th resolution reported from the Committee of the whole House namely "That a national Executive be instituted to consist of a Single Person"

"national legislature" out of the second clause of the 9th resolution, reported from the Committee of the whole House and to insert the words

It was moved and seconded to alter the second clause of the 9th resolution reported from the Committee of the whole House so as to read

"To be chosen by Electors to be appointed by the several Legislatures of the individual States"

9th. Resol: "that Natl. Executive consist of a single person." Agd. to nem. con.

Mr. Governr. Morris was pointedly agst. his being so chosen. He will be the mere creature of the Legisl: if appointed & impeachable by that body. He ought to be elected by the people at large, by the freeholders of the Country. That difficulties attend this mode, he admits. But they have been found superable in N. Y. &. in Cont. and would he believed be found so, in the case of an Executive for the U. States. If the people should elect, they will never fail to prefer some man of distinguished character, or services; some man, if he might so speak, of continental reputation. If the Legislature elect, it will be the work of intrigue, of cabal, and of faction: it will be like the election of a pope by a conclave of cardinals; real merit will rarely be the title to the appointment. < He moved to strike out "National Legislature" & insert citizens of U. S" >

Mr. Sherman thought that the sense of the Nation would be better expressed by the Legislature, than by the people at large. The latter will never be sufficiently informed of characters, and besides will never give a majority of votes to any one man. They will generally vote for some man in their own State, and the largest State will have the best chance for the appointment. If the choice be made by the Legislre. A majority of voices may be made necessary to constitute an election.

Mr. Wilson. two arguments have been urged agst. an election of the Executive Magistrate by the people. I the example of Poland where an Election of the supreme Magistrate is attended with the most dangerous commotions. The cases he observed were totally dissimilar. The Polish nobles have resources & dependents which enable them to appear in force, and to threaten the Republic as well as each other. In the next place the electors all assemble in one place: which would not be the case with us. The 2d. argt. is that a majority of the people would never concur. It might be answered that the concurrence of a majority of people is not a necessary principle of election, nor required as such in any of the States. But allowing the objection all its force, it may be obviated by the expedient used in Masts. where the Legislature by majority of voices, decide in case a majority of people do not concur in favor of one of the candidates. This would restrain the choice to a good nomination at least, and prevent in a great degree intrigue & cabal. A particular objection with him agst. an absolute election by the Legislre. was that the Exec: in that case would be too dependent to stand the mediator between the intrigues & sinister views of the Representatives and the general liberties & interests of the people.

Mr. Pinkney did not expect this question would again have been brought forward; An Election by the people being liable to the most obvious & striking objections. They will be led by a few active & designing men. The most populous States by combining in favor of the same individual will be able to carry their points. The Natl. Legislature being most immediately interested in the laws made by themselves, will be most attentive to the choice of a fit man to carry them properly into execution.

Mr. Govr. Morris. It is said that in case of an election by the people the populous States will combine & elect whom they please. Just the reverse. The people of such States cannot combine. If their be any combination it must be among their representatives in the Legislature. It is said the people will be led by a few designing men. This might happen in a small district. It can never happen throughout the continent. In the election of a Govr. of N. York, it sometimes times is the case in particular spots, that the activity & intrigues of little partizans are successful, but the general voice of the State is never influenced by such artifices. It is said the multitude will be uninformed. It is true they would be uninformed of what passed in the Legislative Conclave, if the election were to be made there; but they will not be uninformed of those great & illustrious characters which have merited their esteem & confidence. If the Executive be chosen by the Natl. Legislature, he will not be independent on it; and if not independent, usurpation & tyranny on the part of the Legislature will be the consequence. This was the case in England in the last Century. It has been the case in Holland, where their Senates have engrossed all power. It has been the case every where. He was surprised that an election by the people at large should ever have been likened to the polish election of the first Magistrate. An election by the Legislature will bear a real likeness to the election by the Diet of Poland. The great must be the electors in both cases, and the corruption & cabal wch are known to characterize the one would soon find their way into the other. Appointments made by numerous bodies, are always worse than those made by single responsible individuals, or by the people at large.

Col. Mason. It is curious to remark the different language held at different times. At one moment we are told that the Legislature is entitled to thorough confidence, and to indefinite power. At another, that it will be governed by intrigue & corruption, and cannot be trusted at all. But not to dwell on this inconsistency he would observe that a Government which is to last ought at least to be practicable. Would this be the case if the proposed election should be left to the people at large. He conceived it would be as unnatural to refer the choice of a proper character for chief Magistrate to the people, as it would, to refer a trial of colours to a blind man. The extent of the Country renders it impossible that the people can have the requisite capacity to judge of the respective pretensions of the Candidates.--

Mr Wilson. could not see the contrariety stated (by Col. Mason) The Legislre. might deserve confidence in some respects, and distrust in others. In acts which were to affect them & yr. Constituents precisely alike confidence was due. In others jealousy was warranted. The appointment to great offices, when the Legislre might feel many motives, not common to the public confidence was surely misplaced. This branch of business it was notorious, was most corruptly managed of any that had been committed to legislative bodies.

Mr. Williamson, conceived that there was the same difference between an election in this case, by the people and by the legislature, as between an appt. by lot, and by choice. There are at present distinguished characters, who are known perhaps to almost every man. This will not always be the case. The people will be sure to vote for some man in their own State, and the largest State will be sure to succede. This will not be Virga. however. Her slaves will have no suffrage. As the Salary of the Executive will be fixed, and he will not be eligible a 2d. time, there will not be such a dependence on the Legislature as has been imagined.

Question on an election by the people instead of the Legislature; < which passed in the negative. >

Mas. no. Cont. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes--1; noes--9.]

Mr. L. Martin moved that the Executive be chosen by Electors appointed by the < several > Legislature< s of the individual States. >

Mas. no. Cont. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes--2; noes--8.]

On the question on the words "to be chosen by the Nationl. Legislature" < it passed unanimously in the affirmative. >

It was moved and seconded to reconsider the several clauses of the 9th resolution which respect the appointment, duration, and eligibility of the National Executive.

"to be chosen by Electors appointed for that purpose by the Legislatures of the States, in the following proportion

One person from each State whose numbers, according to the ratio fixed in the resolution, shall not exceed 100,000 Two from each of the others, whose numbers shall not exceed 300,000 and Three from each of the rest.

"To be chosen by electors appointed for that purpose by the Legislatures of the States"

It was agreed to postpone the consideration of the remainder of the proposition.

Mr. Governeur Morris. It is necessary to take into one view all that relates to the establishment of the Executive; on the due formation of which must depend the efficacy & utility of the Union among the present and future States. It has been a maxim in political Science that Republican Government is not adapted to a large extent of Country, because the energy of the Executive Magistracy can not reach the extreme parts of it. Our Country is an extensive one. We must either then renounce the blessings of the Union, or provide an Executive with sufficient vigor to pervade every part of it. This subject was of so much importance that he hoped to be indulged in an extensive view of it. One great object of the Executive is to controul the Legislature. The Legislature will continually seek to aggrandize & perpetuate themselves; and will seize those critical moments produced by war, invasion or convulsion for that purpose. It is necessary then that the Executive Magistrate should be the guardian of the people, even of the lower classes, agst. Legislative tyranny, against the Great & the wealthy who in the course of things will necessarily compose--the Legislative body. Wealth tends to corrupt the mind & to nourish its love of power, and to stimulate it to oppression. History proves this to be the spirit of the opulent. The check provided in the 2d. branch was not meant as a check on Legislative usurpations of power, but on the abuse of lawful powers, on the propensity in the 1st. branch to legislate too much to run into projects of paper money & similar expedients. It is no check on Legislative tyranny. On the contrary it may favor it, and if the 1st. branch can be seduced may find the means of success. The Executive therefore ought to be so constituted as to be the great protector of the Mass of the people.--It is the duty of the Executive to appoint the officers & to command the forces of the Republic: to appoint 1. ministerial officers for the administration of public affairs. 2. Officers for the dispensation of Justice--Who will be the best Judges whether these appointments be well made? The people at large, who will know, will see, will feel the effects of them--Again who can judge so well of the discharge of military duties for the protection & security of the people, as the people themselves who are to be protected & secured? He finds too that the Executive is not to be re-eligible. What effect will this have? 1. it will destroy the great incitement to merit public esteem by taking away the hope of being rewarded with a reappointment. It may give a dangerous turn to one of the strongest passions in the human breast. The love of fame is the great spring to noble & illustrious actions. Shut the Civil road to Glory & he may be compelled to seek it by the sword. 2. It will tempt him to make the most of the Short space of time allotted him, to accumulate wealth and provide for his friends. 3. It will produce violations of the very constitution it is meant to secure. In moments of pressing danger the tried abilities and established character of a favorite Magistrate will prevail over respect for the forms of the Constitution. The Executive is also to be impeachable. This is a dangerous part of the plan. It will hold him in such dependence that he will be no check on the Legislature, will not be a firm guardian of the people and of the public interest. He will be the tool of a faction, of some leading demagogue in the Legislature. These then are the faults of the Executive establishment as now proposed. Can no better establishmt. be devised? If he is to be the Guardian of the people let him be appointed by the people? If he is to be a check on the Legislature let him not be impeachable. Let him be of short duration, that he may with propriety be re-eligible.-- It has been said that the candidates for this office will not be known to the people. If they be known to the Legislature, they must have such a notoriety and eminence of Character, that they cannot possibly be unknown to the people at large. It cannot be possible that a man shall have sufficiently distinguished himself to merit this high trust without having his character proclaimed by fame throughout the Empire. As to the danger from an unimpeachable magistrate he could not regard it as formidable. There must be certain great officers of State; a minister of finance, of war, of foreign affairs &c.

These he presumes will exercise their functions in subordination to the Executive, and will be amenable by impeachment to the public Justice. Without these ministers the Executive can do nothing of consequence. He suggested a biennial election of the Executive at the time of electing the 1st. branch, and the Executive to hold over, so as to prevent any interregnum in the Administration. An election by the people at large throughout so great an extent of country could not be influenced, by those little combinations and those momentary lies which often decide popular elections within a narrow sphere. It will probably, be objected that the election will be influenced by the members of the Legislature; particularly of the 1st. branch, and that it will be nearly the same thing with an election by the Legislature itself. It could not be denied that such an influence would exist. But it might be answered that as the Legislature or the candidates for it would be divided, the enmity of one part would counteract the friendship of another; that if the administration of the Executive were good, it would be unpopular to oppose his re-election, if bad it ought to be opposed & a reappointmt. prevented; and lastly that in every view this indirect dependence on the favor of the Legislature could not be so mischievous as a direct dependence for his appointment. He saw no alternative for making the Executive independent of the Legislature but either to give him his office for life, or make him eligible by the people.--Again, it might be objected that two years would be too short a duration. But he believes that as long as he should behave himself well, he would be continued in his place. The extent of the Country would secure his re-election agst the factions & discontents of particular States. It deserved consideration also that such an ingredient in the plan would render it extremely palatable to the people. These were the general ideas which occurred to him on the subject, and which led him to wish & move that the < whole constitution of the Executive > might undergo reconsideration.

Mr. Randolph urged the motion of Mr. L. Martin for restoring the words making the Executive ineligible a 2d. time. If he ought to be independent, he should not be left under a temptation to court a re-appointment. If he should be re-appointable by the Legislature, he will be no check on it. His revisionary power will be of no avail. He had always thought & contended as he still did that the danger apprehended by the little States was chimerical, but those who thought otherwise ought to be peculiarly anxious for the motion. If the Executive be appointed, as has been determined, by the Legislature, he will probably be appointed either by joint ballot of both houses, or be nominated by the 1st. and appointed by the 2d. branch. In either case the large States will preponderate. If he is to court the same influence for his re-appointment, will he < not > make his revisionary power. and all the other functions of his administration subservient to the views of the large States. Besides is there not great reason to apprehend that in case he should be re-eligible, a false complaisance in the Legislature might lead them to continue an unfit man in office in preference to a fit one. It has been said that a constitutional bar to reappointment will inspire unconstitutional endeavours to perpetuate himself. It may be answered that his endeavous can have no effect unless the people be corrupt to such a degree as to render all precautions hopeless: to which may be added that this argument supposes him to be more powerful & dangerous, than other arguments which have been used, admit, and consequently calls for stronger fetters on his authority. He thought an election by the Legislature with an incapacity to be elected a second time would be more acceptable to the people that the plan suggested by Mr. Govr. Morris.

Mr. King. did not like the ineligibility. He thought there was great force in the remark of Mr. Sherman, that he who has proved himself to be most fit for an Office, ought not to be excluded by the constitution from holding it. He would therefore prefer any other reasonable plan that could be substituted. He was much disposed to think that in such cases the people at large would chuse wisely. There was indeed some difficulty arising from the improbability of a general concurrence of the people in favor of any one man. On the whole he was of opinion that an appointment by electors chosen by the people for the purpose, would be liable to fewest objections.

Mr. Patterson's ideas nearly coincided he said with those of Mr. King. He proposed that the Executive should be appointed by Electors to be chosen by the States in a ratio that would allow one elector to the smallest and three to the largest States.

Mr. Wilson. It seems to be the unanimous sense that the Executive should not be appointed by the Legislature, unless he be rendered in-eligible a 2d. time: he perceived with pleasure that the idea was gaining ground, of an election mediately or immediately by the people.

Mr. < Madison > If it be a fundamental principle of free Govt. that the Legislative, Executive & Judiciary powers should be separately exercised; it is equally so that they be independently exercised. There is the same & perhaps greater reason why the Executive shd. be independent of the Legislature, than why the Judiciary should: A coalition of the two former powers would be more immediately & certainly dangerous to public liberty. It is essential then that the appointment of the Executive should either be drawn from some source, or held by some tenure, that will give him a free agency with regard to the Legislature. This could not be if he was to be appointable from time to time by the Legislature. It was not clear that an appointment in the 1st. instance < even > with an ineligibility afterwards would not establish an improper connection between the two departments. Certain it was that the appointment would be attended with intrigues and contentions that ought not to be unnecessarily admitted. He was disposed for these reasons to refer the appointment to some other Source. The people at large was in his opinion the fittest in itself. It would be as likely as any that could be devised to produce an Executive Magistrate of distinguished Character. The people generally could only know & vote for some Citizen whose merits had rendered him an object of general attention & esteem. There was one difficulty however of a serious nature attending an immediate choice by the people. The right of suffrage was much more diffusive in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of the Negroes. The substitution of electors obviated this difficulty and seemed on the whole to be liable to the fewest objections.

Mr. Gerry. If the Executive is to be be elected by the Legislature he certainly ought not to be re-eligible. This would make him absolutely dependent. He was asst. a popular election. The people are uninformed, and would be misled by a few designing men. He urged the expediency of an appointment of the Executive by Electors to be chosen by the State Executives. The people of the States will then choose the 1st. branch: The legislatures of the States the 2nd. branch of the National Legislature, and the Executives of the States, the National Executive--This he thought would form a strong attachnt. in the States to the National System. The popular mode of electing the chief Magistrate would certainly be the worst of all. If he should be so elected & should do his duty, he will be turned out for it like Govr Bowdoin in Massts & President Sullivan in N. Hamshire.

On the question on Mr Govr. Morris motion to reconsider generally the Constitution of the Executive--

Mr. Elseworth moved to strike out the appointmt. by the Natl. Legislature, and insert "to be chosen by electors appointed by the Legislatures of the States in the following ratio; towit--one for each State not exceeding 200,000 inhabts. two for each above yt. number & not exceeding 300,000. and, three for each State exceeding 300,000.--Mr. Broome 2ded. the motion

Mr Rutlidge was opposed to all the modes except the appointmt. by the Natl. Legislature. He will be sufficiently independent, if he be not re-eligible

Mr. Gerry preferred the motion of Mr. Elseworth to an appointmt. by the Natl. Legislature, or by the people; tho' not to an appt. by the State Executives. He moved that the electors proposed by Mr. E. should be 25 in number, and allotted in the following proportion. to N.H. 1. to Mas. 3. to R. 1. 1. to. Cont. 2-to N.Y. 2-N. J. 2. Pa. 3. Del. 1. Md. 2. Va. 3. N. C. 2. S. C. 2. Geo. 1.

The question as moved by Mr. Elseworth being divided, on the 1st. part shall ye. Natl. Executive be appointed by Electors?

Mas-divd. Cont. ay. N.J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay- N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes--6; noes--3; divided--1.]

Mas. ay. Cont. ay. N.J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. no. N.C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay. [Ayes--8; noes--2.]

The part relating to the ratio in which the States sd. chuse electors was postponed nem. con.

Mr. Williamson 2ds. the motion. He had no great confidence in the Electors to be chosen for the special purpose. They would not be the most respectable citizens; but persons not occupied in the high offices of Govt. They would be liable to undue influence, which might the more readily be practiced as some of them will probably be in appointment 6 or 8 months before the object of it comes on.

Mr. Elseworth supposed any persons might be appointed Electors, excepting solely, members of the Natl. Legislature.

Mas. no. Ct. no. N.J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no. [Ayes--2; noes--8.]

On the question shall the Executive continue for 7 years? < It passed in the negative > Mas. divd. Cont. ay. N--J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. divd. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes--3; noes--5; divided--2.]

Mr. Govr Morris was for a short term, in order to avoid impeachts. which wd. be otherwise necessary.

Mr. Butler was agst. a frequency of the elections. Geo & S. C. were too distant to send electors often.

Mr. Elseworth was for 6 years. If the elections be too frequent, the Executive will not be firm eno'. There must be duties which will make him unpopular for the moment. There will be outs as well as ins. His administration therefore will be attacked and misrepresented.

Mr. Williamson was for 6 years. The expence will be considerable & ought not to be unnecessarily repeated. If the Elections are too frequent, the best men will not undertake the service and those of an inferior character will be liable to be corrupted.

Mas. ay. Cont. ay. N.J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N.C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes--9; noes--1.]

It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the clause, respecting the number of Electors, entered on the Journal yesterday in order to take up the following namely,

Resolved that for the first election of the supreme Executive the proportion of Electors shall be as follows, namely

It was moved and seconded to add one Elector to the States of New Hampshire and Georgia.

The last motion having been misunderstood, it was moved and seconded that it be put again and on the question to give an additional Elector to each of the States of New Hampshire and Georgia

On the question to agree to the above resolution respecting the first election of the supreme Executive

It was moved and seconded to agree to the following resolution Resolved That the Electors respectively shall not be Members of the National Legislature, or Officers of the Union, or eligible to the office of supreme Magistrate

The < postponed > Ratio of Electors for appointing the Executive; to wit I for each State whose inhabitants do not exceed 100,000, &c. being taken up.

xMr. < Madison > observed that this would make in time all or nearly all the the States equal. Since there were few that would not in time contain the number of inhabitants entitling them to 3 Electors; that this ratio ought either to be made temporary, or so varied as that it would adjust itself to the growing population of the States.

Mr. Gerry moved that in the 1st. instance the Electors should be allotted to the States in the following ratio: to N.H. 1. Mas. 3. R. 1. 1. Cont. 2. N.Y. 2. N.J. 2. Pa. 3. Del. 1. Md. 2. Va. 3-N. C. 2. S. C. 2. Geo. 1.

On the question to postpone in order to take up this motion of Mr. Gerry. < It passed in the affirmative. >

Mas. ay. Cont. no. N.J. no. Pa. ay. Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N.C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes--6; noes--4.]

Mr. Elseworth moved that 2 Electors be allotted to N.H. Some rule ought to be pursued; and N.H. has more than 100,000 inhabitants. He thought it would be proper also to allot 2. to Georgia.

Mr. Broom & Mr. Martin moved to postpone Mr. Gerry's allotment of Electors, leaving a fit ratio to be reported by the Committee to be appointed for detailing the Resolutions.

Mas-no. Ct. no. N.J. ay. Pa. no. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. no. N.C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes--3; noes--7.]

Mr. Houston 2ded. the motion of Mr. Elseworth to add another Elector to N.H. & Georgia. On the Question:

Mas. no. Ct ay. N.J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md no. Va. no. N.C. no. S. C.-ay-Geo-ay. [Ayes--3; noes--7.]

Mr. Williamson moved as an amendment to Mr. Gerry's allotment of Electors in the 1st. instance that in future elections of the Natl. Executive, the number of Electors to be appointed by the several States shall be regulated by their respective numbers of Representatives in the 1st. branch pursuing as nearly as may be the present proportions.

Mas. ay. Ct ay. N.J. no. Pa. ay. Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay-N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no. [Ayes--6; noes--4.]

Mr. Gerry & Govr. Morris moved that the Electors of the Executive shall not be members of the Natl. Legislature, nor officers of the U. States, nor shall the Electors themselves be eligible to the < supreme > Magistracy." Agreed to nem. con.

It was moved and seconded to add the following clause to the resolution respecting the Electors of the supreme Executive, namely

"Who shall be paid out of the national Treasury for the "devotion of their time to the public service"

Mr. Williamson moved that the Electors of the Executive should be paid out of the National Treasury for the Service to be performed by them". Justice required this: as it was a national service they were to render. The motion was agreed to nem.--con.

which passed in the affirmative [Ayes--7; noes--3.] and to-morrow was assigned for the reconsideration. [Ayes--8; noes--2.]

It was moved and seconded that the proceedings of the Convention for the establishment of a national government, except what respects the Supreme Executive, be referred to a Committee for the purpose of reporting a Constitution conformably to the Proceedings aforesaid which passed unanimously in the affirmative [Ayes 10; noes--0.]

Mr. Houston & Mr. Spaight moved "that the appointment of the Executive by Electors chosen by the Legislatures of the States, be reconsidered." Mr. Houston urged the extreme inconveniency & the considerable expense, of drawing together men from all the States for the single purpose of electing the Chief Magistrate.

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. Pa. no. Del--ay. Md. no. Virga. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes--7; noes--3.]

Mr. Gerry moved that the proceedings of the Convention for the establishment of a Natl. Govt. (except the part relating to the Executive), be referred to a Committee to prepare & report a Constitution conformable thereto.

Genl. Pinkney reminded the Convention that if the Committee should fail to insert some security to the Southern States agst. an emancipation of slaves, and taxes on exports, he shd. be bound by duty to his State to vote agst. their Report.--The appt. of a Come. as moved by Mr. Gerry. Agd. to nem. con.

Shall the Come. consist of 10 members" < one from each State prest. >. --All the States were no. except Delaware. ay.

N. H. ay Mas. ay. Ct. ay. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no. [Ayes--5; noes--5.] The question being lost < by an equal division of Votes. >

It was agreed nem -- con -- that the Commttee consist of 5 members, < to be appointed tomorrow. >

It was moved and seconded to strike the following words out of theresolution respecting the supreme Executive namely "by electors appointed for that purpose by the Legislatures "of the States" and to insert the words

It was moved and seconded to strike out the word "six" and to insert the word "fifteen."

It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the resolution respecting the Executive

byElectors to be taken by lot from the national Legislature; the Electors to proceed immediately to the choice of the Executive, and not to separate until it be made The question of Order being taken on the last Motion--it was determined that the motion is in order. [Ayes--7; noes--4.]

On the question to postpone the consideration of the resolution, it passed unanimously in the affirmative

The House then produced to ballot for the Committee of detail when the honorable Mr Rutledge, Mr Randolph, Mr Gorham, Mr Elsworth, and Mr Wilson were chosen--

It was moved and seconded to discharge the Committee of the whole House from acting on the propositions submitted to the Convention by the honorable Mr C. Pinckney -- and that the said propositions be referred to the Committee to whom the Proceedings of the Convention are referred

It was moved and seconded to take the like order on the propositions submitted to the Convention by the honorable Mr Paterson

That ye Legislatures of ye several States shall ballot in ye in ye following proportions for ye supreme Executive, & a Majority of votes shall determine the Election, but in case there shall not be a Majority, the four persons having ye highest votes shall be candidates for ye office, & out of these the first Branch shall elect two, & the second Branch shall determine which of ye two so elected shall be chief Magistrate

The Executive shall be chosen everyyears byElectors to be taken by lot from the national legislature--the electors to proceed immediately to the choice of the Executive and not to separate until it be made--

then put in 90 balls--of which as many as the proposed number of electors shall be gilded--those who draw these balls to be Electors

Mr. Houston moved that he be appointed by the "Natl. Legislature. < instead of "Electors appointed by the State Legislatures" according to the last decision of the mode > He dwelt chiefly on the improbability, that capable men would undertake the service of Electors from the more distant States. Mr. Spaight seconded the motion.

Mr. Gerry opposed it. He thought there was no ground to apprehend the danger urged by Mr. Houston. The election of the Executive Magistrate will be considered as of vast importance and will create great earnestness. The best men, the Governours of the States will not hold it derogatory from their character to be the electors. If the motion should be agreed to, it will be necessary to make the Executive ineligible a 2d. time, in order to render him independent of the Legislature; which was an idea extremely repugnant to his way of thinking.

Mr. Strong supposed that there would be no necessity, if the Executive should be appointed by the Legislature, to make him ineligible a 2d. time; as new elections of the Legislature will have intervened; and he will not depend for his 2d. appointment on the same sett of men as his first was recd. from. It had been suggested that gratitude for his past appointment wd. produce the same effect as dependence for his future appointment. He thought very differently. Besides this objection would lie agst. the Electors who would be objects of gratitude as well as the Legislature. It was of great importance not to make the Govt. too complex which would be the case if a new sett of men like the Electors should be introduced into it. He thought also that the first characters in the States would not feel sufficient motives to undertake the office of Electors.

Mr. Williamson was for going back to the original ground; to elect the Executive for 7 years and render him ineligible a 2d. time. The proposed Electors would certainly not be men of the 1st. nor even of the 2d. grade in the States. These would all prefer a seat either in the Senate or the other branch of the Legislature. He did not like the Unity in the Executive. He had wished the Executive power to be lodged in three men taken from three districts into which the States should be divided. As the Executive is to have a kind of veto on the laws, and there is an essential difference of interests between the N. & S. States, particularly in the carrying trade, the power will be dangerous, if the Executive is to be taken from part of the Union, to the part from which he is LC not taken. The case is different here from what it is in England; where there is a sameness of interest throughout the Kingdom. Another objection agst. a single Magistrate is that he will be an elective King, and will feel the spirit of one. He will spare no pains to keep himself in for life, and will then lay a train for the succession of his children. It was pretty certain he thought that we should at some time or other have a King; but he wished no precaution to be omitted that might postpone the event as long as possible.--Ineligibility a 2d. time appeared to him to be the best precaution. With this precaution he had no objection to a longer term than 7 years. He would go as far as 10 or 12 years.

Mr. Gerry moved that the Legislatures of the States should vote by ballot for the Executive in the same proportions as it had been proposed they should chuse electors; and that in case a majority of the votes should < not > center on the same person, the 1st. branch of the Natl. Legislature should chuse two out of the 4 candidates having most votes, and out of these two, the 2d. branch should chuse the Executive.

Mr. King seconded the motion--and on the Question to postpone in order to take it into consideration, The noes were so predominant that the States were not counted.

Question on Mr. Houston's motion that the Executive be appd. by Nal. Legislature

N.H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N.J. ay. Pa. no. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes--7; noes--4.]

Mr. L. Martin & Mr. Gerry moved to reinstate the ineligibility of the Executive a 2d. time.

Mr. Elseworth. With many this appears a natural consequence of his being elected by the Legislature. It was not the case with him. The Executive he thought should be reelected if his conduct proved him worthy of it. And he will be more likely to render him< self > worthy of it if he be rewardable with it. The most eminent characters also will be more willing to accept the trust under this condition, than if they foresee a necessary degradation at a fixt period.

Mr. Gerry. That the Executive shd. be independent of the Legislature is a clear point. The longer the duration of his appointment the more will his dependence be diminished--It will be better then for him to continue 10, 15, or even 20--years and be ineligible afterwards.

Mr. King was for making him re-eligible. This is too great an advantage to be given up for the small effect it will have on his dependence, if impeachments are to lie. He considered these as rendering the tenure during pleasure.

Mr. L. Martin, suspending his motion as to the ineligibility, moved "that the appointmt. of the Executive shall continue for Eleven years.

Mr. Wilson. The difficulties & perplexities into which the House is thrown proceed from the election by the Legislature which he was sorry had been reinstated. The inconveniency of this mode was such that he would agree to almost any length of time in order to get rid of the dependence which must result from it. He was persuaded that the longest term would not be equivalent to a proper mode of election, unless indeed it should be during good behaviour. It seemed to be supposed that at a certain advance of life, a continuance in office would cease to be agreeable to to the officer, as well as desireable to the public. Experience had shewn in a variety of instances that both a capacity & inclination for public service existed--in very advanced stages. He mentioned the instance of a Doge of Venice who was elected after he was 80 years of age. The popes have generally been elected at very advanced periods, and yet in no case had a more steady or a better concerted policy been pursued than in the Court of Rome. If the Executive should come into office at 35. years of age, which he presumes may happen & his continuance should be fixt at 15 years. at the age of 50. in the very prime of life, and with all the aid of experience, he must be cast aside like a useless hulk. What an irreparable loss would the British Jurisprudence have sustained, had the age of 50. been fixt there as the ultimate limit of capacity or readiness to serve the public. The great luminary (Ld. Mansfield) held his seat for thirty years after his arrival at that age. Notwithstanding what had been done he could not but hope that a better mode of election would yet be adopted; and one that would be more agreeable to the general sense of the House. That time might be given for further deliberation he wd. move that the present question be postponed till tomorrow.

Mr. Gerry. We seem to be entirely at a loss on this head. He would suggest whether it would not be advisable to refer the clause relating to the Executive to the Committee of detail to be appointed. Perhaps they will be able to hit on something that may unite the various opinions which have been thrown out.

Mr. Wilson. As the great difficulty seems to spring from the mode of election, he wd. suggest a mode which had not been mentioned. It was that the Executive be elected for 6 years by a small number, not more than 15 of the Natl Legislature, to be drawn from it, not by ballot, but by lot and who should retire immediately and make the election < without separating >. By this mode intrigue would be avoided in the first instance, and the dependence would be diminished. This was not he said a digested idea and might be liable to strong objections.

Mr. Govr. Morris. Of all possible modes of appointment that by the Legislature is the worst. If the Legislature is to appoint, and to impeach or to influence the impeachment, the Executive will be the mere creature of it. He had been opposed to the impeachment, but was now convinced that impeachments must be provided for, if the appt. was to be of any duration. No man wd. say, that an Executive known to be in the pay of an Enemy, should not be removable in some way or other. He had been charged heretofore (by Col. Mason) with inconsistency in pleading for confidence in the Legislature on some occasions, & urging a distrust on others. The charge was not well founded. The Legislature is worthy of unbounded confidence in some respects, and liable to equal distrust in others. When their interest coincides precisely with that of their Constituents, as happens in many of their Acts, no abuse of trust is to be apprehended. When a strong personal interest happens to be opposed to the general interest, the Legislature can not be too much distrusted. In all public bodies there are two parties. The Executive will necessarily be more connected with one than with the other. There will be a personal interest therefore in one of the parties to oppose as well as in the other to support him. Much had been said of the intrigues that will be practiced by the Executive to get into office. Nothing had been said on the other side of the intrigues to get him out of office. Some leader of party will always covet his seat, will perplex his administration, will cabal with the Legislature, till he succeeds in supplanting him. This was the way in which the King of England was got out, he meant the real King, the Minister. This was the way in which Pitt (Ld. Chatham) forced himself into place. Fox was for pushing the matter still farther. If he had carried his India bill, which he was very near doing, he would have made the Minister, the King in form almost as well as in substance. Our President will be the British Minister, yet we are about to make him appointable by the Legislature. Something had been said of the danger of Monarchy--If a good government should not now be formed, if a good organization of the Execuve should not be provided, he doubted whether we should not have something worse than a limited Monarchy. In order to get rid of the dependence of the Executive on the Legislature, the expedient of making him ineligible a 2d. time had been devised. This was as much as to say we shd. give him the benefit of experience, and then deprive ourselves of the use of it. But make him ineligible a 2d. time-and prolong his duration even to 15-years, will he by any wonderful interposition of providence at that period cease to be a man? No he will be unwilling to quit his exaltation, the road to his object thro' the Constitution will be shut; he will be in possession of the sword, a civil war will ensue, and the Commander of the victorious army on which ever side, will be the despot of America. This consideration renders him particularly anxious that the Executive should be properly constituted. The vice here would not, as in some other parts of the system be curable- It is < the > most difficult of all rightly to balance the Executive. Make him too weak: The Legislature will usurp his powers: Make him too strong. He will usurp on the Legislature. He preferred a short period, a re-eligibility, but a different mode of election. A long period would prevent an adoption of the plan: it ought to do so. He shd. himself be afraid to trust it. He was not prepared to decide on Mr. Wilson's mode of election just hinted by him. He thought it deserved consideration. It would be better that chance sd. decide than intrigue.

< On A question to postpone the consideration of the Resolution on the subject of the Executive >

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N.J. no. Pa. ay. Del. divd. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes--4; noes--6; divided--1.]

Mr. Wilson < then > moved that the Executive be chosen every years by Electors to be taken by lot from the Natl Legislature who shall proceed immediately to the choice of the Executive < and not separate until it be made >

Mr Gerry. this is committing too much to chance. If the lot should fall on a sett of unworthy men, an unworthy Executive must be saddled on the Country. He thought it had been demonstrated that no possible mode of electing by the Legislature could be a good one.

Mr. King -- The lot might fall on a majority from the same State which wd. ensure the election of a man from that state.

We ought to be governed by reason, not by chance. As no body seemed to be satisfied, he wished the matter to be postponed

Mr. Wilson did not move this as the best mode. His opinion remained unshaken that we ought to resort to the people for the election. He seconded the postponement.

Mr. Govr. Morris observed that the chances were almost infinite agst. a majority of electors from the same State.

< On a question whether the last motion was in order, it was determined in the affirmative; 7. ays. 4 noes. >

It was moved and seconded to agree to the following amendment to the resolution respecting the election of the supreme Executive namely

"except when the Magistrate last chosen shall have continued in office the whole term for which he was chosen, and "be reeligible in which case the choice shall be by Electors "appointed for that purpose by the several Legislatures"

[Note 1: 1 Vote 218, Detail of Ayes and Noes, which states that the amendment was "Mr Elsworth's".]

It was moved and seconded to agree to the following amendment to the resolution respecting the supreme Executive, namely

"Provided that no person shall be capable of holding "the said office for more than six years in any term of twelve"

[That the members of the Committee be furnished with copies of the proceedingsAyes--10; noes--1.

That the members of the House take copies of the resolutions which have been agreed to Ayes--5; noes--6.] It was moved and seconded to refer the resolution respecting the Executive (except that clause which provides that it consist of a single Person) to the Committee of detail.

Before a determination was taken on the last motion [To adjourn Ayes--9; noes--2.] The House adjourned till to-morrow at 11 o'Clock A. M.

Mr. Elseworth moved "that the Executive be appointed by the Legislature," except when < the magistrate last chosen shall > have < continued in office the whole term for which he was chosen, & be reeligible, in which case the choice shall be > by -Electors appointed by the Legislatures of the States < for that purpose." > By this means a deserving Magistrate may be reelected without making him dependent on the Legislature.

Mr. Gerry repeated his remark that an election at all by the Natl. Legislature was radically and incurably wrong; and moved that the Executive be appointed by the Governours & Presidents of the States, with advice of their Councils, and when there are no Councils by Electors chosen by the Legislatures. The executives to vote in the following proportions: < viz-- >

Mr. < Madison. > There are objections agst. every mode that has been, or perhaps can be proposed. The election must be made either by some existing authority under the Natil. or State Constitutions--or by some special authority derived from the people--or by the people themselves.--The two Existing authorities under the Natl. Constitution wd be the Legislative & Judiciary. The latter he presumed was out of the question. The former was in his Judgment liable to insuperable objections. Besides the general influence of that mode on the independence of the Executive, 1. the election of the Chief Magistrate would agitate & divide the legislature so much that the public interest would materially suffer by it. Public bodies are always apt to be thrown into contentions, but into more violent ones by such occasions than by any others. 2. the candidate would intrigue with the Legislature, would derive his appointment from the predominant faction, and be apt to render his administration subservient to its views. 3. The Ministers of foreign powers would have and make use of, the opportunity to to mix their intrigues & influence with the Election. Limited as the powers of the Executive are, it will be an object of great moment with the great rival powers of Europe who have American possessions, to have at the head of our Governmt. a man attached to their respective politics & interests. No pains, nor perhaps expence, will be spared, to gain from the Legislature an appointmt., favorable to their wishes. Germany & Poland are witnesses of this danger. In the former, the election of the Head of the Empire, till it became in a manner hereditary, interested all Europe, and was much influenced by foreign interference--In the latter, altho' the elective Magistrate has very little real power, his election has at all times produced the most eager interference of foreign princes, and has in fact at length slid entirely into foreign hands. The existing authorities in the States are the Legislative, Executive & Judiciary. The appointment of the Natl Executive by the first was objectionable in many points < of view >, some of which had been already mentioned. He would mention one which of itself would decide his opinion. The Legislatures of the States had betrayed a strong propensity to a variety of pernicious measures. One object of the Natl. Legislre. was to controul this propensity. One object of the Natl. Executive, so far as it would have a negative on the laws, was to controul the Natl. Legislature, so far as it might be infected with a similar propensity. Refer the appointmt of the Natl. Executive to the State Legislatures, and this controuling purpose may be defeated. The Legislatures can & will act with some kind of regular plan, and will promote the appointmt. of a man who will not oppose himself to a favorite object. Should a majority of the Legislatures at the time of election have the same object, or different objects of the same kind, the Natl Executive, would be rendered subservient to them.--An appointment by the State Executives, was liable among other objections to this insuperable one, that being standing bodies, they could & would be courted, and intrigued with by the Candidates, by their partizans, and by the Ministers of foreign powers. The State Judiciarys had not & he presumed wd. not be proposed as a proper source of appointment. The Option before us then lay between an appointment by Electors chosen by the people--and an immediate appointment by the people. He thought the former mode free from many of the objections which had been urged agst. it, and greatly preferable to an appointment by the Natl. Legislature. As the electors would be chosen for the occasion, would meet at once, & proceed immediately to an appointment, there would be very little opportunity for cabal, or corruption,. As a further precaution, it might be required that they should meet at some place, distinct from the seat of Govt. and even that no person within a certain distance of the place at the time shd. be eligible. This mode however had been rejected so recently & by so great a majority that it probably would not be proposed anew. The remaining mode was an election by the people or rather by the < qualified part of them. > at large. With all its imperfections he liked this best. He would not repeat either the general argumts. for or the objections agst this mode. He would only take notice of two difficulties which he admitted to have weight. The first arose from the disposition in the people to prefer a Citizen of their own State, and the disadvantage this wd. throw on the smaller States. Great as this objection might be he did not think it equal to such as lay agst. every other mode which had been proposed. He thought too that some expedient might be hit upon that would obviate it. The second difficulty arose from the disproportion of < qualified voters > in the N. & S. States, and the disadvantages which this mode would throw on the latter. The answer to this objection was I. that this disproportion would be continually decreasing under the influence of the Republican laws introduced in the S. States, and the more rapid increase of their population. 2. That local local considerations must give way to the general interest. As an individual from the S. States he was willing to make the sacrifice.

Mr. Elseworth. The objection drawn from the different sizes of the States, is unanswerable. The Citizens of the largest States would invariably prefer the Candidate within the State; and the largest States wd. invariably have the man.

N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N.J. no. Pa. ay. Del. no-Md. ay. Va no. N- C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes--4; noes--7.]

Mr. Pinkney moved that the election by the Legislature be qualified with a proviso that no person be eligible for more than 6 years in any twelve years. He thought this would have all the advantage & at the same time avoid in some degree the inconveniency, of an absolute ineligibility a 2d. time.

Col. Mason approved the idea. It had the sanction of experience in the instance of Congs. and some of the Executives of the States. It rendered the Executive as effectually independent, as an ineligibility after his first election, and opened the way at the same time for the advantage of his future services. He preferred on the whole the election by the Natl. Legislature: Tho' Candor obliged him to admit, that there was great danger of foreign influence, as had been suggested. This was the most serious objection with him that had been urged.

Mr Butler. The two great evils to be avoided are cabal at home, & influence from abroad. It will be difficult to avoid either if the Election be made by the Natl Legislature. On the other hand, the Govt. should not be made so complex & unwieldy as to disgust the States. This would be the case, if the election shd. be referred to the people. He liked best an election by Electors chosen by the Legislatures of the States. He was agst. a re-eligibility at all events. He was also agst. a ratio of votes in the States. An equality should prevail in this case. The reasons for departing from it do not hold in the case of the Executive as in that of the Legislature.

Mr Govr. Morris was agst. a rotation in every case. It formed a political School, in wch. we were always governed by the scholars, and not by the Masters -- The evils to be guarded agst in this case are. 1. the undue influence of the Legislature. 2. instability of Councils. 3. misconduct in office. To guard agst. the first, we run into the second evil. we adopt a rotation which produces instability of Councils. To avoid Sylla we fall into Charibdis. A change of men is ever followed by a change of measures We see this fully exemplified in the vicissitudes among ourselves, particularly in the State of Pena. The selfsufficiency of a victorious party scorns to tread in the paths of their predecessors. Rehoboam will not imitate Solomon. 2. the Rotation in office will not prevent intrigue and dependence on the Legislature. The man in office will look forward to the period at which he will become re-eligible. The distance of the period, the improbability of such a protraction of his life will be no obstacle. Such is the nature of man, formed by his benevolent author no doubt for wise ends, that altho' he knows his existence to be limited to a span, he takes his measures as if he were to live forever. But taking another supposition, the inefficacy of the expedient will be manifest. If the magistrate does not look forward to his re-election to the Executive, he will be pretty sure to keep in view the opportunity of his going into the Legislature itself. He will have little objection then to an extension of power on a theatre where he expects to act a distinguished part; and will be very unwilling to take any step that may endanger his popularity with the Legislature, on his influence over which the figure he is to make will depend. 3. To avoid the third evil, impeachments will be essential, and hence an additional reason agst an election by the Legislature. He considered an election by the people as the best, by the Legislature as the worst, mode. Putting both these aside, he could not but favor the idea of Mr. Wilson, of introducing a mixture of lot. It will diminish, if not destroy both cabal & dependence.

Mr. Williamson was sensible that strong objections lay agst an election of the Executive by the Legislature, and that it opened a door for foreign influence. The principal objection agst. an election by the people seemed to be, the disadvantage under which it would place the smaller States. He suggested as a cure for this difficulty, that each man should vote for 3 candidates. One of these he observed would be probably of his own State, the other 2. of some other States; and as probably of a small as a large one.

Mr. Govr. Morris liked the idea, suggesting as an amendment that each man should vote for two persons one of whom at least should not be of his own State.

Mr < Madison > also thought something valuable might be made of the suggestion with the proposed amendment of it. The second best man in this case would probably be the first, in fact. The only objection which occurred was that each Citizen after havg. given his vote for his favorite fellow Citizen wd. throw away his second on some obscure Citizen of another State, in order to ensure the object of his first choice. But it could hardly be supposed that the Citizens of many States would be so sanguine of having their favorite elected, as not to give their second vote with sincerity to the next object of their choice. It might moreover be provided in favor of the smaller States that the Executive should not be eligible more thantimes inyears from the same State.

Mr. Gerry--A popular election in this case is radically vicious. The ignorance of the people would put it in the power of some one set of men dispersed through the Union & acting in Concert to delude them into any appointment. He observed that such a Society of men existed in the Order of the Cincinnati. They were respectable, United, and influencial. They will in fact elect the chief Magistrate in every instance, if the election be referred to the people.--His respect for the characters composing this Society could not blind him to the danger & impropriety of throwing such a power into their hands.

Mr. Dickenson. As far as he could judge from the discussion which had taken place during his attendance, insuperable objections lay agst an election of the Executive by the Natl. Legislature; as also by the Legislatures or Executives of the States--He had long leaned towards an election by the people which he regarded as the best and purest source. Objections he was aware lay agst this mode, but not so great he thought as agst the other modes. The greatest difficulty in the opinion of the House seemed to arise from the partiality of the States to their respective Citizens. But, might not this very partiality be turned to a useful purpose. Let the people of each State chuse its best Citizen. The people will know the most eminent characters of their own States, and the people of different States will feel an emulation in selecting those of which they will have the greatest reason to be proud--Out of the thirteen names thus selected, an Executive Magistrate may be chosen either by the Natl Legislature, or by Electors appointed by it.

On a Question which was moved for postponing Mr. Pinkney's motion, in order to make way for some such proposition as had been hinted by Mr. Williamson & others. < it passed in the negative. >

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N.J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. no. Md. ay. Va ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes--5; noes--6.]

On Mr. Pinkney's motion that no person shall serve in the Executive more than 6 years in 12. years, < it passed in the negative. >

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N.J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay [Ayes--5; noes--6.]

< On a motion that the members of the Committee be furnished with copies of the proceedings it was so determined; S. Carolina alone being in the negative-- >

It was then moved that the members of the House might take copies of the Resolions which had been agreed to; which passed in the negative.

N. H. no--Mas. no. Con--ay. N.J. ay. Pa. no--Del. ay. Maryd. no. V--ay. N--C. ay. S. C. no--Geo. no--> [Ayes--5; noes 6.]

Mr. Gerry & Mr Butler moved to refer the < resolution > relating to the Executive < (except the clause making it consist of a single person) > to the Committee of detail

Mr. Wilson hoped that so important a branch of the System wd. not be committed untill a general principle shd. be fixed by a vote of the House.

It was moved and seconded to amend the third clause of the resolution respecting the national executive so as to read as follows, namely

On the question to agree to the whole resolution respecting the supreme Executive namely.

to be removable on impeachment and conviction of malpractice or neglect of duty.

Col. Mason. In every Stage of the Question relative to the Executive, the difficulty of the subject and the diversity of the opinions concerning it have appeared. Nor have any of the modes of constituting that department been satisfactory.

1. It has been proposed that the election should be made by the people at large; that is that an act which ought to be performed by those who know most of Eminent characters, & qualifications, should be performed by those who know least. 2 that the election should be made by the Legislatures of the States. 3. by the Executives of the States. Agst these modes also strong objections have been urged. 4. It has been proposed that the election should be made by Electors chosen by the people for that purpose. This was at first agreed to: But on further consideration has been rejected. 5. Since which, the mode of Mr Williamson, requiring each freeholder to vote for several candidates has been proposed. This seemed like many other propositions, to carry a plausible face, but on closer inspection is liable to fatal objections. A popular election < in any form >, as Mr. Gerry has observed, would throw the appointment into the hands of the Cincinnati, a Society for the members of which he had a great respect; but which he never wished to have a preponderating influence in the Govt. 6. Another expedient was proposed by Mr. Dickenson, which is liable to so palpable & material an inconvenience that he had little < doubt > of its being by this time rejected by himself. It would exclude every man who happened not to be popular within his own State; tho' the causes of his local unpopularity might be of such a nature as to recommend him to the States at large. 7. Among other expedients, a lottery has been introduced. But as the tickets do not appear to be in much demand, it will probably, not be carried on, and nothing therefore need be said on that subject. After reviewing all these various modes, he was led to conclude-- that an election by the Nail Legislature as originally proposed, was the best. If it was liable to objections, it was liable to fewer than any other. He conceived at the same time that a second election ought to be absolutely prohibited. Having for his primary object, for the pole star of his political conduct, the preservation of the rights of the people, he held it as an essential point, as the very palladium of Civil liberty, that the great officers of State, and particularly the Executive should at fixed periods return to that mass from which they were at first taken, in order that they may feel & respect those rights & interests, Which are again to be personally valuable to them. He concluded with moving that the constitution of the Executive as reported by the Come. of the whole be re-instated, viz. "that the Executive be appointed for seven years, & be ineligible a 2d. time,"

Docr. Franklin. It seems to have been imagined by some that the returning to the mass of the people was degrading the magistrate. This he thought was contrary to republican principles. In free Governments the rulers are the servants, and the people their superiors & sovereigns. For the former therefore to return among the latter was not to degrade but to promote them- and it would be imposing an unreasonable burden on them, to keep them always in a State of servitude, and not allow them to become again one of the Masters.

N. H. ay. Masts. not on floor. Ct. no. N.J. ay. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes--7; noes--3; absent--1.]

Mr. Govr. Morris was now agst. the whole paragraph. In answer to Col. Mason's position that a periodical return of the great officers of the State into the mass of the people, was the palladium of Civil liberty he wd. observe that on the same principle the Judiciary ought to be periodically degraded; certain it was that the Legislature ought on every principle- yet no one had proposed. or conceived that the members of it should not be re-eligible. In answer to Docr. Franklin, that a return into the mass of the people would be a promotion. instead of a degradation, he had no doubt that our Executive like most others would have too much patriotism to shrink from the burden of his office, and too much modesty not to be willing to decline the promotion.

< On the question on the whole resolution as amended in the words following--"that a National Executive be instituted--to consist of a single person--to be chosen by the Natl. legislature--for the term of seven years--to be ineligible a 2d. time--with power to carry into execution the natl. laws--to appoint to offices in cases not otherwise provided for--to be removeable on impeachment & conviction of mal-practice or neglect of duty--to receive a fixt compensation for the devotion of his time to the public service, to be paid out of the Natl. Treasury"--it passed in the affirmative >

N. H. ay. Mas. not on floor. Ct. ay. N.J. ay. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. divd. Mr. B. < Blair > & Col. M. < Mason > ay. Genl. W. < Washington > & Mr M--< Madison > no. Mr. Randolph happened to be out of the House. N-- C-- ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes--6; noes--3; divided--1; absent--1.]

Resolved That a national Executive be instituted to consist of a single Person--to be chosen for the Term of six Years--with Power to carry into Execution the national Laws--to appoint to Offices in Cases not otherwise provided for--to be removeable on Impeachment and Conviction of real Practice or Neglect of Duty--to receive a fixed Compensation for the Devotion of his Time to public Service--to be paid out of the public Treasury.

1. To insert essential principles only, lest the operations of government should be clogged by rendering those provisions permanent and unalterable, which ought to be accomodated to times and events. and

2. To use simple and precise language, and general propositions, according to the example of the (several) constitutions of the several states. (For the construction of a constitution of necessarrily differs from that of law)

2. who shall (hold) be elected by the Legislature < by (joint) Ballot (of wh) each Ho. have a Negative on the other >

We the People of the States of New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New-York, New-Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North-Carolina, South-Carolina and Georgia, do ordain, declare and establish the following Constitution for the Government of ourselves and our Posterity.

The Government shall consist of supreme legislative, executive, and judicial Powers.

The Executive Power of the United States shall be vested in a single Person. His Stile shall be, "The President of the United States of America;" and his Title shall be, "His Excellency". He shall be elected by Ballot by the Legislature. He shall hold his Office during the term of seven Years; but shall not be elected a second Time.

The honorable John Francis Mercer Esq, One of the Deputies from the State of Maryland, attended and took his seat.

The honorable Mr Rutledge, from the Committee to whom were referred the Proceedings of the Convention for the purpose of reporting a Constitution for the establishment of a national Government conformable to these Proceedings, informed the House that the Committee were prepared to report-- The report was then delivered in at the Secretary's table, and being read once throughout and copies thereof given to the members-- It was moved and seconded to adjourn till wednesday morning

Mr. Rutlidge < delivered in > the Report of the Committee of detail as follows; < a printed copy being at the same time furnished to each member. > (In the printed copy, the number VI was repeated, consequently Article VII and all subsequent articles were misnumbered. It is important to remember this in noting subsequent references to articles by number.)

"We the people of the States of New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New-York, New-Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North-Carolina, South-Carolina, and Georgia, do ordain, declare, and establish the following Constitution for the Government of Ourselves and our Posterity.

The Government shall consist of supreme legislative, executive, and judicial powers.

Sect. 1. The Executive Power of the United States shall be vested in a single person. His stile shall be "The President of the United States of America;" and his title shall be, "His Excellency". He shall be elected by ballot by the Legislature. He shall hold his office during the term of seven years; but shall not be elected a second time.

< A motion was made to adjourn till Wednesday, in order to give leisure to examine the Report; which passed in the Negative--N. H. no. Mas--no. Ct. no. Pa. ay Md. ay. Virg. ay. N. C. no. S--C. no

Separate questions being taken on the 1st 2nd and 3rd clauses of the 1st section -- 10th article, as reported,

It was moved and seconded to strike out the word "Legislature" and to insert the word "People" in the 1st section 10th article.

It was moved and seconded to insert the word "joint" before the word "ballot" in the 1st section of the 10th article

It was moved and seconded to add after the word "Legislature" in the 1st section 10th article the words "each State having one vote"

It was moved and seconded to insert after the word "Legislature" in the 1st sect. of the 10 article the words "to which election a majority of the votes of the Members present shall be required"

"and in case the numbers for the two highest in votes "should be equal, then the President of the Senate shall have "an additional casting voice"

It was moved and seconded to agree to the following amendment to the first sect. of the 10th article

It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the two last clauses of the 1st sect. 10 article

It was moved and seconded to refer the two last clauses of the 1st sect. 10 article. to a committee of a Member from each State.

The consideration of the remaining clauses of the 1st section 10 article was postponed till to-morrow on the request of the Deputies of the State of New Jersey.

Art X. sect. 1. "The executive power of the U--S--shall be vested in a single person. His stile shall be "The President of the U--S. of America" and his title shall be "His Excellency". He shall be elected by ballot by the Legislature. He shall hold his office during the term of seven years; but shall not be elected a second time.

On the question for vesting the power in a single person--It was agreed to nem: con: So also on the Stile and title--

Mr. Rutlidge moved to insert "joint" before the word "ballot", as the most convenient mode of electing.

Mr. Sherman objected to it as depriving the States represented in the Senate of the negative intended them in that house,

Mr. Ghorum said it was wrong to be considering, at every turn whom the Senate would represent. The public good was the true object to be kept in view-- Great delay and confusion would ensue if the two Houses shd vote separately, each having a negative on the choice of the other.

Mr. Dayton. It might be well for those not to consider how the Senate was constituted, whose interest it Was to keep it out of sight.-- If the amendment should be agreed to, a joint ballot would in fact give the appointment to one House; He could never agree to the clause with such an amendment. There could be no < doubt > of the two Houses separately concurring in the same person for President. The importance & necessity of the case would ensure < a concurrence >.

Mr. Carrol moved to strike out, "by the Legislature" and insert "by the people"--Mr Wilson 2ded. him & on the question

N. H. no. Massts. no. Cont. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md no. Va. no N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes--2; noes--9.]

Mr Brearly was opposed to the motion for inserting the word "joint". The argument that the small States should not put their hands into the pockets of the large ones did not apply in this case.

Mr. Wilson urged the reasonableness of giving the larger States a larger share of the appointment, and the danger of delay from a disagreement of the two Houses. He remarked also that the Senate had peculiar powers balancing the advantage given by a joint balot in this case to the other branch of the Legislature.

Mr. Langdon. This general officer ought to be elected by the joint & general voice. In N. Hampshire the mode of separate votes by the two Houses was productive of great difficulties. The Negative of the Senate would hurt the feelings of the man elected by the votes of the other branch. He was for inserting "joint" tho' unfavorable to N. Hampshire as a small State.

was to be the President of the U--S. that Body in cases of vacancy might have an interest in throwing dilatory obstacles in the way, if its separate concurrence should be required.

Mr. Madison. If the amendment be agreed to the rule of voting will give to the largest State, compared with the smallest, an influence as 4 to 1 only, altho the population is as 10 to 1. This surely cannot be unreasonable as the President is to act for the people not for the States. The President of the Senate also is to be occasionally President of the U. S. and by his negative alone can make ¾ of the other branch necessary to the passage of a law-- This is another advantage enjoyed by the Senate.

N. H. ay. Masts ay--Ct. no. N.J. no. Pa. ay--Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no. [Ayes--7; noes--4.]

Mr. Dayton then moved to insert, after the word "Legislatures" the words "each State having one vote" Mr Brearly 2ded. him, and on the question < it passed in the negative >

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. no. Del. ay. Md ay Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay [Ayes--5; noes --6.]

Mr. Pinkney moved to insert after the word "Legislature" the words "to which election a majority of the votes of the members present shall be required" &

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N.J. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay-- Md. ay--Va. ay--N. C. ay--S. C. ay--Geo. ay. [Ayes--10; noes-- 1.]

Mr Read moved "that in case the numbers for the two highest in votes should be equal, then the President of the Senate shall have an additional casting vote", which was disagreed to by a general negative.

Mr. Govr Morris opposed the election of the President by the Legislature. He dwelt on the danger of rendering the Executive uninterested in maintaining the rights of his Station, as leading to Legislative tyranny. If the Legislature have the Executive dependent on them, they can perpetuate

& support their usurpations by the influence of tax-gatherers & other officers, by fleets armies &c. Cabal & corruption are attached to that mode of election: so also is ineligibility a second time. Hence the Executive is interested in Courting popularity in the Legislature by sacrificing his Executive rights; & then he can go into that Body, after the expiration of his Executive Office, and enjoy there the fruits of his policy. To these considerations he added that rivals would be continually intriguing to oust the President from his place. To guard against all these evils he moved that the President "shall be chosen by Electors to be chosen by the people of the several States" Mr Carrol 2ded. him & on the question < it passed in the negative >

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N--J--ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no--Va. ay. N-- C-- no-- S-- C-- no-- Geo-- no. [Ayes--5; noes--6.]

Mr. Dayton moved to postpone the consideration of the two last clauses of sect. I. art. X. which was disagreed to without a count of the States.

Mr Broome moved to refer the two clauses to a Committee of a Member from each State. & on the question, < it failed the States being equally divided. >

N-- H-- no-- Mas-- no. Ct. divd. N-- J-- ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. ay-- Va. ay. N-- C-- no. S. C. no-- Geo. no. [Ayes-- 5; noes --5; divided--1.]

On the question taken on the first part of Mr. Govr Morris's Motion to wit "shall be chosen by electors" as an abstract question, < it failed the States being equally divided-- >

N--H--no. Mas. abst. Ct. divd. < N. Jersey ay > Pa ay. Del. ay. Md. divd. Va ay-- N-- C-- no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes--4; noes--4; divided--2; absent--1.]

The consideration of the remaining clauses of sect I. art X. was then posponed till tomorrow at the instance of the Deputies of New Jersey--

The 10 article give rise to various debate. Amended to read that the election of the president of the U. S. be by joint ballot. It was moved to add each State having one vote--Conn: Jer. Mar. Georg. ay. N. H. Mass. Penns. Vir. N. C. and S. C. no. It was moved that the president be elected by the people 3 states affirm --7 neg.

That in the strength of the Executive would be found the strength of America. Ineligibility operates to weaken or destroy the constitution.

He will for peace and emolument to himself and friends agree to acts that will encrease the power and agrandize the bodies which elect him.

The legislature will swallow up the whole powers of the constitution; but to do this effectually they must possess the Executive. This will lead them to tempt him, and the shortness of his reign will subject him to be tempted and overcome.

The legislature has great and various appointments in their power. This will create them an extensive influence which may be so used as to put it out of the power of the Executive to prevent them from arriving at supremacy.

On the other hand give the Executive a chance of being re-chosen and he will hold his prerogatives with all possible tenaciousness.

It was moved and seconded to refer such parts of the Constitution as have been postponed, and such parts of reports as have not been acted on to a Committee of a Member from each State

and a Committee was appointed by ballot of The honorable Mr Gilman, Mr King, Mr Sherman, Mr Brearley, Mr G. Morris, Mr Dickinson, Mr Carrol, Mr Madison, Mr Williamson, Mr Butler and Mr Baldwin.

The honorable Mr Brearley from the Committee of eleven informed the House that the Committee were prepared to report partially-- He then read the report in his place; it was afterwards delivered in at the Secretary's table -- and was again read: and is as follows.

The Committee of eleven to whom sundry resolutions &ca were referred on the 31st ultimo, report that in their opinion the following additions and alterations should be made to the report before the Convention -- viz

"The Senate of the United States shall have power to try all impeachments; but no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of two thirds of the Members present. after the word Excellency in the 1st sect 10 article to be inserted "He shall hold his office during the term of four years, and together with the Vice President, chosen for the same term, be elected in the following manner.

Each State shall appoint in such manner as it's Legislature may direct, a number of Electors equal to the whole number of Senators, and Members of the House of representatives to which the State may be entitled in the legislature.

The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an inhabitant of the same State with themselves. -- and they shall make a list of all the Persons voted for, and of the number of votes for each, which list they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the general Government, directed to the President of the Senate.

The President of the Senate shall in that House open all the certificates, and the votes shall be then and there counted -- The Person having the greatest number of votes shall be the President, if such number be a majority of < the whole number > of the Electors < appointed > and if there be more than One, who have such Majority, and have an equal number of votes, then the Senate shall < immediately > choose by ballot one of them for President: but if no Person have a majority, then from the five highest on the list, the Senate shall choose by ballot the President -- and in every case after the choice of the President, the Person having the greatest number of votes shall be Vice President: but if there should remain two or more, who have equal votes, the Senate shall choose from them the Vice President.

The Legislature may determine the time of chusing and assembling the Electors, and the manner of certifying and transmitting their votes.

Mr. Brearley from the Committee of eleven made a further partial Report as follows

"The Committee of Eleven to whom sundry resolutions &c were referred on the 31st. of August, report that in their opinion the following additions and alterations should be made to the Report before the Convention, viz

(4) After the word 'Excellency' in sect. 1. art. 10. to be inserted. 'He shall hold his office during the term of four years, and together with the vice-President, chosen for the same term, be elected in the following manner, viz. Each State shall appoint in such manner as its Legislature may direct, a number of electors equal to the whole number of Senators and members of the House of Representatives, to which the State may be entitled in the Legislature. The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by ballot for two persons, of whom one at least shall not be an inhabitant of the same State with themselves; and they shall make a list of all the persons voted for, and of the number of votes for each, which list they shall sign and certify and transmit sealed to the Seat of the. Genl. Government, directed to the President of the Senate -- The President of the Senate shall in that House open all the certificates; and the votes shall be then & there counted. The Person having the greatest number of votes shall be the President, if such number be a majority of that of the electors; and if there be more than one who have such a majority, and have an equal number of votes, then the Senate shall immediately choose by ballot one of them for President: but if no person have a majority. then from the five highest on the list, the Senate shall choose by ballot the President. And in every case after the choice of the President, the person having the greatest number of votes shall be vice-president: but if there should remain two or more who have equal votes, the Senate shall choose from them the vice-President. The Legislature may determine the time of choosing and assembling the Electors, and the manner of certifying and transmitting their votes.'

Mr. Gorham disapproved of making the next highest after the President, the vice-President, without referring the decision to the Senate in case the next highest should have less than a majority of votes. as the regulation stands a very obscure man with very few votes may arrive at that appointment

Mr Sherman said the object of this clause of the report of the Committee was to get rid of the ineligibility, which was attached to the mode of election by the Legislature, & to render the Executive independent of the Legislature. As the choice of the President was to be made out of the five highest, obscure characters were sufficiently guarded against in that case: And he had no objection to requiring the vice-President to be chosen in like manner, where the choice was not decided by a majority in the first instance

Mr. Madison was apprehensive that by requiring both the President & vice President to be chosen out of the five highest candidates, the attention of the electors would be turned too much to making candidates instead of giving their votes in order to a definitive choice, Should this turn be given to the business, the election would in fact be consigned to the Senate altogether. It would have the effect at the same time, he observed, of giving the nomination of the candidates to the largest States.

Mr Randolph & Mr Pinkney wished for a particular explanation & discussion of the reasons for changing the mode of electing the Executive.

Mr. Govr. Morris said he would give the reasons of the Committee and his own. The 1st. was the danger of intrigue & faction if the appointmt. should be made by the Legislature. 2 the inconveniency of an ineligibility required by that mode in order to lessen its evils. 3 The difficulty of establishing a Court of Impeachments, other than the Senate which would not be so proper for the trial nor the other branch for the impeachment of the President, if appointed by the Legislature, 4. No body had appeared to be satisfied with an appointment by the Legislature. 5. Many were anxious even for an immediate choice by the people-- 6-- the indispensable necessity of making the Executive independent of the Legislature. -- As the Electors would vote at the same time throughout the U. S. and at so great a distance from each other, the great evil of cabal was avoided. It would be impossible also to corrupt them. A conclusive reason for making the Senate instead of the Supreme Court the Judge of impeachments, was that the latter was to try the President after the trial of the impeachment.

Col: Mason confessed that the plan of the Committee had removed some capital objections, particularly the danger of cabal and corruption. It was liable however to this strong objection, that nineteen times in twenty the President would be chosen by the Senate, an improper body for the purpose.

Mr. Butler thought the mode not free from objections, but much more so than an election by the Legislature, where as in elective monarchies, cabal faction & violence would be sure to prevail.

Mr. Pinkney stated as objections to the mode 1. that it threw the whole appointment in fact into the hands of the Senate. 2-- The Electors will be strangers to the several candidates and of course unable to decide on their comparative merits. 3. It makes the Executive reeligible which will endanger the public liberty. 4. It makes the same body of men which will in fact elect the President his Judges in case of an impeachment.

Mr. Williamson had great doubts whether the advantage of reeligibility would balance the objection to such a dependence of the President on the Senate for his reappointment. He thought at least the Senate ought to be restrained to the two highest on the list

Mr. Govr. Morris said the principal advantage aimed at was that of taking away the opportunity for cabal. The President may be made if thought necessary ineligible on this as well as on any other mode of election. Other inconveniences may be no less redressed on this plan than any other.

Mr. Baldwin thought the plan not so objectionable when well considered, as at first view. The increasing intercourse among the people of the States, would render important characters less & less unknown; and the Senate would consequently be less & less likely to have the eventual appointment thrown into their hands.

Mr. Wilson. This subject has greatly divided the House, and will also divide people out of doors. It is in truth the most difficult of all on which we have had to decide. He had never made up an opinion on it entirely to his own satisfaction. He thought the plan on the whole a valuable improvement on the former. It gets rid of one great evil, that of cabal & corruption; & Continental Characters will multiply as we more & more coalesce, so as to enable the electors in every part of the Union to know & judge of them. It clears the way also for a discussion of the question of re-eligibility on its own merits, which the former mode of election seemed to forbid. He thought it might be better however to refer the eventual appointment to the Legislature than to the Senate, and to confine it to a smaller number than five of the Candidates. The eventual election by the Legislature wd. not open cabal anew, as it would be restrained to certain designated objects of choice, and as these must have had the previous sanction of a number of the States: and if the election be made as it ought as soon as the votes of the electors are opened & it is known that no one has a majority of the whole, there can be little danger of corruption-- Another reason for preferring the Legislature to the Senate in this business, was that the House of Reps. will be so often changed as to be free from the influence & faction to which the permanence of the Senate may subject that branch --

Mr. Randolph preferred the former mode of constituting the Executive, but if the change was to be made, he wished to know why the eventual election was referred to the Senate and not to the Legislature? He saw no necessity for this and many objections to it. He was apprehensive also that the advantage of the eventual appointment would fall into the hands of the States near the Seat of Government.

Mr Govt. Morris said the Senate was preferred because fewer could then, say to the President, you owe your appointment to us. He thought the President would not depend so much on the Senate for his re-appointment as on his general good conduct.

The further consideration of the Report was postponed that each member might take a copy of the remainder of it.

It was moved and seconded to take up the remainder of the report from the Committee of eleven entered on the Journal of the 4. instant

It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the report in order to take up the following.

"He shall be elected by joint ballot by the Legislature, to "which election a majority of the votes of the Members present "shall be required: He shall hold his office during the term of "seven years: but shall not be elected a second "time" --

It was moved and seconded to strike out the word "Senate" and to insert the word "Legislature"

It was moved and seconded to strike out the words "such majority" and to insert the words "one third."

It was moved and seconded to strike out the word "five" and to insert the word "thirteen"

It was moved and seconded to add after the word "electors" the words "who shall have balloted"

It was moved and seconded to add after the words "if such number be a majority of the whole number of the Electors" the word "appointed"

It was moved and seconded to insert after the words "The Legislature may determine the time of chusing and assembling the Electors" the words "and of their giving their votes"

The Report made yesterday as to the appointment of the Executive being then taken up. Mr. Pinkney renewed his opposition to the mode, arguing 1. that the electors will not have sufficient knowledge of the fittest men, & will be swayed by an attachment to the eminent men of their respective States -- Hence 2dly the dispersion of the votes would leave the appointment with the Senate, and as the President's reappointment will thus depend on the Senate he will be the mere creature of that body. 3. lie will combine with the Senate agst the House of Representatives. 4. This change in the mode of election was meant to get rid of the ineligibility of the President a second time, whereby he will become fixed for life under the auspices of the Senate

Mr. Gerry did not object to this plan of constituting the Executive in itself, but should be governed in his final vote by the powers that may be given to the President.

Mr. Rutlidge was much opposed to the plan reported by the Committee. It would throw the whole power into the Senate. He was also against a re-eligibility. He moved to postpone the Report under consideration & take up the original plan of appointment by the Legislature. to wit. "He shall be elected by joint ballot by the Legislature to which election a majority of the votes of the members present shall be required: He shall hold his office during the term of Seven years; but shall not be elected a second time"

N-- H-- divd. Mas. no-- Ct no-- N-- J. no. Pa. no-- Del-- no. Md. no-- Va. no. N. C. ay-- S. C. ay-- Geo. no. [Ayes -- 2; noes -- 8; divided -- 1.]

Col. Mason admitted that there were objections to an appointment by the Legislature as originally planned. He had not yet made up his mind; but would state his objections to the mode proposed by the Committee. 1. It puts the appointment in fact into the hands of the Senate, as it will rarely happen that a majority of the whole votes will fall on any one candidate: and as the Existing President will always be one of the 5 highest, his re-appointment will of course depend on the Senate. 2. Considering the powers of the President & those of the Senate, if a coalition should be established between these two branches, they will be able to subvert the Constitution. -- The great objection with him would be removed by depriving the Senate of the eventual election. He accordingly moved to strike out the words "if such number be a majority of that of the electors"

Mr. Williamson 2ded. the motion. He could not agree to the clause without some such modification. He preferred making the highest tho' not having a majority of the votes, President, to a reference of the matter to the Senate. Refering the appointment to the Senate lays a certain foundation for corruption & aristocracy.

Mr. Govr Morris thought the point of less consequence than it was supposed on both sides. It is probable that a majority of the votes will fall on the same man, As each elector is to give two votes, more than ¼ will give a majority. Besides as one vote is to be given to a man out of the State, and as this vote will not be thrown away, ½ the votes will fall on characters eminent & generally known. Again if the President shall have given satisfaction, the votes will turn on him of course, and a majority of them will reappoint him, without resort to the Senate: If he should be disliked, all disliking him, would take care to unite their votes so as to ensure his being supplanted.

Col: Mason those who think there is no danger of there not being a majority for the same person in the first instance, ought to give up the point to those who think otherwise.

Mr Sherman reminded the opponents of the new mode proposed that if the Small States had the advantage in the

Senate's deciding among the five highest candidates, the Large States would have in fact the nomination of these candidates

N. H. no-- Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. ay. Va. no-- N. C. ay. S-- C. no. Geo. no [Ayes -- 2; noes -- 9.]

Mr Madison considered it as a primary object to render an eventual resort to any part of the Legislature improbable. He was apprehensive that the proposed alteration would turn the attention of the large States too much to the appointment of candidates, instead of aiming at an effectual appointment of the officer, as the large States would predominate in the Legislature which would have the final choice out of the Candidates. Whereas if the Senate in which the small States predominate should have the final choice, the concerted effort of the large States would be to make the appointment in the first instance conclusive.

Mr Randolph. We have in some revolutions of this plan made a bold stroke for Monarchy. We are now doing the same for an aristocracy. He dwelt on the tendency of such an influence in the Senate over the election of the President in addition to its other powers, to convert that body into a real & dangerous Aristocracy --

Mr Dickinson was in favor of giving the eventual election to the Legislature, instead of the Senate -- It was too much influence to be superadded to that body --

N. H-- divd. Mas. no-- Ct no-- N-- J-- no. Pa. ay. Del-- no. Md. no. Va. ay-- N-- C. no-- S. C. ay. Geo. no. [Ayes -- 3; noes -- 7; divided -- 1.]

Mr Madison & Mr. Williamson moved to strike out the word "majority" and insert "one third" so that the eventual power might not be exercised if less than a majority, but not less than 1/3 of the Electors should vote for the same person--

Mr. Gerry objected that this would put it in the power of three or four States to put in whom they pleased.

Mr. Williamson. There are seven States which do not contain one third of the people -- If the Senate are to appoint, less than one sixth of the people will have the power --

N. H- no. Mas. no- Ct no- N. J- no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no- Va. ay. N- C. ay. S. C no. Geo. no. [Ayes -- 2; noes -- 9.]

Mr Gerry suggested that the eventual election should be made by six Senators and seven Representatives chosen by joint ballot of both Houses.

Mr King observed that the influence of the Small States in the Senate was somewhat balanced by the influence of the large States in bringing forward the candidates, and also by the Concurrence of the small States in the Committee in the clause vesting the exclusive origination of Money bills in the House of Representatives.

Col: Mason moved to strike out the word "five" and insert the word "three" as the highest candidates for the Senate to choose out of --

N. H. no- Mas. no- Ct. no. N- J. no. Pa no. < Delaware > Md. < no > Va ay- N- C- ay- S. C. no- Geo- no. [Ayes -- 2; noes -- 8.]

Mr Spaight and Mr. Rutlidge moved to strike out "five" and insert "thirteen" -- to which all the States disagreed -- except N-- C. & S-- C--

Mr Madison & Mr. Williamson moved to insert after "Electors" the words "who shall have balloted" so that the non voting electors not being counted might not increase the number necessary as a majority of the whole -- to decide the choice without the agency of the Senate --

N. H-- no. Mas-- no. Ct. < no >. N. J-- no. Pa ay. Del. no. Md. ay. Va ay-- N-- C. ay. S-- C--no. Geo. no [Ayes -- 4; noes -- 7.]

Mr. Dickinson moved, in order to remove ambiguity from the intention of the clause as explained by the vote, to add, after the words "if such number be a majority of the whole "number of the Electors" the word "appointed"

N. H. ay. Mas-- ay-- < Con: ay > N-- J-- ay-- Pa ay. < Delaware > Md. ay-- Va. no. N. C. no. S-- C. ay-- Geo. ay. [Ayes -- 8; noes -- 2.]

Col: Mason. As the mode of appointment is now regulated, he could not forbear expressing his opinion that it is utterly inadmissible. He would prefer the Government of Prussia to one which will put all power into the hands of seven or eight men, and fix an Aristocracy worse than absolute monarchy.

The words "and of their giving their votes" being inserted on motion for that purpose, after the words "The Legislature may determine the time of chusing and assembling the Electors"

It was moved and seconded to insert the following words after the words "may be entitled in the Legislature" in the 5. clause of the report entered on the Journal of the 4th instant.

"But no Person shall be appointed an Elector who is a "Member of the Legislature of the United States or who "holds any office of profit or trust under the United States"

It was moved and seconded to insert the word "seven" instead of "four" in the fourth clause of the report.

It was moved and seconded to insert the words "under the seal of the State" after the word "transmit" in the sixth clause of the report

The person having the greatest number of votes shall be the PresidtAyes -- 8; noes -- 2; divided -- 1

It was moved and seconded to insert the words "and who shall have given their votes" after the word "appointed" in the 7 clause of the report.

It was moved and seconded to insert the words "in presence of the Senate and House of representatives" after the word "counted"

It was moved and seconded to insert the word "immediately" before the word "choose"

[and that not less than 2/3 of the whole number of Senators be present -- (In presence of the S & Ho of representatives)

It was moved and seconded to insert the words "of the Electors" after the word "votes"

It was moved and seconded to agree to the following clause "But The election shall be on the same day throughout the United States" after the words "transmitting their votes"

It was moved and seconded to strike out the words "The Senate shall immediately choose by ballot" &ca and to insert the words "The House of representatives shall immediately choose by ballot one of them for President, the Members from each State having one vote"

"But a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a Member "or Members from two thirds of the States"

[and in every case after the choice of the Presidt the Person having the greatest number of votes Ayes -- 10; noes -- 1.]

"He shall hold his office during the term of four years, and together with the Vice President, chosen for the same term, be elected in the following manner.

"But no Person shall be appointed an Elector who is a member "of the Legislature of the United States, or who holds "any office of profit or trust under the United States.

The Electors shall meet in their respective States and "vote by ballot for two Persons of whom one at least shall "not be an inhabitant of the same State with themselves. "and they shall make a list of all the Persons voted for, and "of the number of votes for each, which list they shall sign "and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the general "Government, directed to the President of the Senate.

"The President of the Senate shall in the presence of the "Senate and House of representatives open all the certificates "and the votes shall then be counted.

The Person having the greatest number of votes shall be "the President (if such number be a majority of the whole "number of the Electors appointed) and if there be more "than one who have such majority, and have an equal number "of votes, then the House of representatives shall immediately "choose by ballot one of them for President, the "representation from each State having one vote -- But if "no Person have a majority, then from the five highest on "the list, the House of representatives shall, in like manner, "choose by ballot the President -- In the choice of a "President by the House of representatives a quorum shall "consist of a Member or Members from two thirds of the "States. and the concurrence of a majority of all the States, "shall be necessary to such choice. -- and, in every case after "the choice of the President, the Person having the greatest "number of votes of the Electors shall be the vice-President: "But, if there should remain two or more who have equal "votes, the Senate shall choose from them the Vice President" "The Legislature may determine the time of chusing the "Electors and of their giving their votes: and the manner of "certifying and transmitting their votes -- But the election "shall be on the same day throughout the United States"

Mr. King and Mr. Gerry moved to insert in the (5) clause of the Report (see Sepr 4) after the words "may be entitled in the Legislature" the words following -- "But no person shall be appointed an elector who is a member of the Legislature of the U. S. or who holds any office of profit or trust under the U. S." which passed nem: con:

Mr. Gerry proposed, as the President was to be elected by the Senate out of the five highest candidates, that if he should not at the end of his term be re-elected by a majority of the Electors, and no other candidate should have a majority, the eventual election should be made by the Legislature -- This he said would relieve the President from his particular dependence on the Senate for his continuance in office.

Mr. King liked the idea, as calculated to satisfy particular members & promote unanimity; & as likely to operate but seldom.

Mr Read opposed it, remarking that if individual members were to be indulged, alterations would be necessary to satisfy most of them--

Mr Williamson espoused it as a reasonable precaution against the undue influence of the Senate.

Mr Sherman liked the arrangement as it stood, though he should not be averse to some amendments. He thought he said that if the Legislature were to have the eventual appointment instead of the Senate, it ought to vote in the case by States, in favor of the snall States, as the large States would have so great an advantage in nominating the candidates--

Mr. Govr Morris thought favorably of Mr. Gerry's proposition. It would free the President from being tempted in naming to Offices. to Conform to the will of the Senate, & thereby virtually give the appointments to office, to the Senate.

Mr Wilson said that he had weighed carefully the report of the Committee for remodelling the constitution of the Executive; and on combining it with other parts of the plan, he was obliged to consider the whole as having a dangerous tendency to aristocracy; as throwing a dangerous power into the hands of the Senate, They will have in fact, the appointment of the President, and through his dependence on them, the virtual appointment to offices; among others the offices of the Judiciary Department. They are to make Treaties; and they are to try all impeachments. In allowing them thus to make the Executive & Judiciary appointments, to be the Court of impeachments, and to make Treaties which are to be laws of the land, the Legislative, Executive & Judiciary powers are all blended in one branch of the Government. The power of making Treaties involves the case of subsidies, and here as an additional evil, foreign influence is to be dreaded-- According to the plan as it now stands, the President will not be the man of the people as he ought to be, but the Minion of the Senate. He cannot even appoint a tide-waiter without the Senate-- He had always thought the Senate too numerous a body for making appointments to office. The Senate, will moreover in all probability be in constant Session. They will have high salaries. And with all those powers, and the President in their interest, they will depress the other branch of the Legislature, and aggrandize themselves in proportion. Add to all this, that the Senate sitting in Conclave, can by holding up to their respective States various and improbable candidates, contrive so to scatter their votes, as to bring the appointment of the President ultimately before themselves-- Upon the whole, he thought the new mode of appointing the President, with some amendments, a valuable improvement; but he could never agree to purchase it at the price of the ensuing parts of the Report, nor befriend a system of Which they make a part--

Mr. Govr. Morris expressed his wonder at the observations of Mr. Wilson so far as they preferred the plan in the printed Report to the new modification of it before the House, and entered into a comparative view of the two, with an eye to the nature of Mr. Wilsons objections to the last. By the first the Senate he observed had a voice in appointing the President out of all the Citizens of the U. S. -- by this they were limited to five candidates previously nominated to them, with a probability of being barred altogether by the successful ballot of the Electors. Here surely was no increase of power. They are now to appoint Judges nominated to them by the President. Before they had the appointment without any agency whatever of the President. Here again was surely no additional power. If they are to make Treaties as the plan now stands, the power was the same in the printed plan--

If they are to try impeachments, the Judges must have been triable by them before. Wherein then lay the dangerous tendency of the innovations to establish an aristocracy in the Senate? As to the appointment of officers, the weight of sentiment in the House, was opposed to the exercise of it by the President alone; though it was not the case with himself -- If the Senate would act as was suspected, in misleading the States into a fallacious disposition of their votes for a President, they would, if the appointment were withdrawn wholly from them, make such representations in their several States where they have influence, as would favor the object of their partiality.

Mr. Williamson. < replying to Mr. Morris: observed that > The aristocratic complexion proceeds from the change in the mode of appointing the President which makes him dependent on the Senate.

Mr. Clymer said that the aristocratic part to which he could never accede was that in the printed plan, which gave the Senate the power of appointing to Offices.

Mr. Hamilton said that he had been restrained from entering into the discussions by his dislike of the Scheme of Govt in General; but as he meant to support the plan to be recommended, as better than nothing, he wished in this place to offer a few remarks. He liked the new modification, on the whole, better than that in the printed Report. In this the President was a Monster elected for seven years, and ineligible afterwards; having great powers, in appointments to office, & continually tempted by this constitutional disqualification to abuse them in order to subvert the Government -- Although he should be made re-eligible, Still if appointed by the Legislature, he would be tempted to make use of corrupt influence to be continued in office -- It seemed peculiarly desirable therefore that Some other mode of election should be devised. Considering the different views of different States, & the different districts Northern Middle & Southern, he concurred with those who thought that the votes would not be concentered, and that the appointment would consequently in the present mode devolve on the Senate. The nomination to offices will give great weight to the President -- Here then is a mutual connection & influence, that will perpetuate the President, and aggrandize both him & the Senate. What is to be the remedy? He saw none better than to let the highest number of ballots, whether a majority or not, appoint the President. What was the objection to this? Merely that too small a number might appoint. But as the plan stands, the Senate may take the candidate having the smallest number of votes, and make him President.

Mr. Spaight & Mr. Williamson moved to insert "seven" instead of "four" years for the term of the President --

N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. no-- N. J. no-- Pa no. Del-- no. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C-- ay. S. C. no. Geo-- no. [Ayes -- 3; noes -- 8.]

Mr. Spaight & Mr. Williamson then moved to insert "six" instead of "four". On which motion

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. no, N. C-- ay. S. C. ay-- Geo. no [Ayes -- 2; noes -- 9.]

On the question < (Clause 4. in the Report) > for Appointing President by electors -- down to the words, -- "entitled in the Legislature" inclusive. "See

N. H-- ay-- Mas: ay. < Cont: ay > N. J. ay-- Pa. ay. Del-- ay. Md ay, Va ay. N. C. no-- S-- C-- no-- Geo ay. [Ayes -- 9; noes -- 2.]

< It was moved that the Electors meet at the seat of the Genl. Govt. which passed in the Negative. N. C. only being ay. >

It was moved to insert the words "under the seal of the State" after the word "transmit" < in 4th clause of the Report > which was disagreed to; as was another motion to insert the words "and who shall have given their votes" after the word "appointed" < in the 4th Clause of the Report > as added yesterday on motion of Mr. Dickinson.

On several motions. the words "in presence of the Senate and House of Representatives" were inserted after the word "Counted" and the word "immediately" before the word "choose"; and the words "of the Electors" after the word "votes".

Mr. Spaight said if the election by Electors is to be crammed down, he would prefer their meeting altogether and deciding finally without any reference to the Senate and moved "That the Electors meet at the seat of the General Government--"

Mr Williamson 2ded. the motion, on which all the States were in the negative except N: Carolina.

On motion the words "But the election shall be on the same day throughout the U-- S--" were added after the words "transmitting their votes." N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay [Ayes -- 8; noes -- 3.]

On a question on the sentence in clause (4). "if such number be a majority of that of the electors" < appointed." >

N-- H-- ay-- Mas. ay. Ct ay. N. J. ay-- Pa no-- Delay. Md. ay. Va no-- N. C. no. S-- C. ay Geo. ay. [Ayes -- 8; noes -- 3.]

On a question on the clause referring the eventual appointment of the President to the Senate

N-- H-- ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa ay. Del-- ay-- Va ay. N. C. no Here the call ceased.

Mr Madison made a motion requiring 2/3 at least of the Senate to be present at the choice of a President -- Mr. Pinkney 2ded, the motion

Mr. Gorham thought it a wrong principle to require more than a majority in any case. In the present case it might prevent for a long time any choice of a President On the question moved by Mr M-- & Mr. P.

N. H. ay: Mas. abst Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N- C. ay. S- C. ay. Geo. ay [Ayes -- 6; noes -- 4; absent -- 1.]

Mr. Williamson suggested as better than an eventual choice by the Senate, that this choice should be made by the Legislature, voting by States and not per capita.

Mr. Sherman suggested the House of Reps. as preferable to "the Legislature", and moved, accordingly,

To strike out the words "The Senate shall immediately choose &c." and insert "The House of Representatives shall immediately choose by ballot one of them for President, the members from each State having one vote."

Col: Mason liked the latter mode best as lessening the aristocratic influence of the Senate.

N. H. ay. Mas. ay-- Ct. ay-- N. J. ay. Pa ay. Del. no. Md. ay. Va ay. N-- C. ay-- S-- C. ay. Geo. ay, [Ayes -- 10; noes -- 1.]

Mr. Govr Morris suggested the idea of providing that in all cases, the President in office, should not be one of the five Candidates; but be only re-eligible in case a majority of the electors should vote for him-- (This was another expedient for rendering the President independent of the Legislative body for his continuance in office)

Mr. Madison remarked that as a majority of members wd. make a quorum in the H-- of Reps. it would follow from the amendment of Mr Sherman giving the election to a majority of States, that the President might be elected by two States only, Virga. & Pena. which have 18 members, if these States alone should be present

On a motion that the eventual election of Presidt. in case of an equality of the votes of the electors be referred to the House of Reps.

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N-- C. ay. S. C. ay-- Geo-- ay, [Ayes -- 8; noes -- 3.]

"But a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two thirds of the States," and also of a majority of the whole number of the House of Representatives."

Col Mason liked it as obviating the remark of Mr Madison -- The motion as far as "States" inclusive was agd. to

On the residue to art. -- "and also of a majority of the whole number of the House of Reps. < it passed in the Negative >

N. H. no. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay-- N-- C-- ay-- S-- C-- no-- Geo-- no. [Ayes -- 5; noes -- 6.]

The Report relating to the appointment of the Executive stands as amended, as follows,

"He shall hold his office during the term of four years, and together with the vice-President, chosen for the same term, be elected in the following manner.

Each State shall appoint in such manner as its Legislature may direct, a number of electors equal to the whole number of Senators and members of the House of Representatives, to which the State may be entitled in the Legislature:

But no person shall be appointed an Elector who is a member of the Legislature of the U. S. or who holds any office of profit or trust under the U. S.

The Electors shall meet in their respective States and vote by ballot for two persons, of whom one at least shall not be an inhabitant of the same State with themselves; and they shall make a list of all the persons voted for, and of the number of votes for each; which list they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the General Government, directed to the President of the Senate.

The President of the Senate shall in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives open all the certificates & the votes shall then be counted.

The person having the greatest number of votes shall be the President (if such number be a majority of the whole number of electors appointed) and if there be more than one who have such a majority, and have an equal number of votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately choose by ballot one of them for President, the Representation from each State having one vote-- But if no person have a majority, then from the five highest on the list, the House of Representatives shall in like manner choose by ballot the President-- In the choice of a President by the House of Representatives, a Quorum shall consist of a member or members from two thirds of the States, ( and the concurrence of a majority of all the States shall be necessary to such choice- ) -- And in every case after the choice of the President, the person having the greatest number of votes of the Electors shall be the vice-president: But, if there should remain two or more who have equal votes, the Senate shall choose from them the vice-President.

The Legislature may determine the time of choosing the Electors, and of their giving their votes; and the manner of certifying and transmitting their votes -- But the election shall be on the same day throughout the U-- States."

In general the choice will rest in the Senate -- take this choice from them and the report is an improvement on the printed paper.

In the printed paper a destroying monster is created. He is not re eligible, he will therefore consider his 7 years as 7 years of lawful plunder. Had he been made re eligible by the legislature, it would not have removed the evil, he would have purchased his re election.

At present the people may make a choice -- but hereafter it is probable the choice of a president would centre in the Senate.

As the report stands -- the President will use the power of nominating to attach the Senate to his interest. He will act by this means continually on their hopes till at length they will boeth act as one body. Let the election of the president be confined to electors, and take from the Senate the power to try impeachments, and the report will be much preferable to the printed paper.

He does not agree with those persons who say they will vote against the report because they cannot get all parts of it to please them -- He will take any system which promises to save America from the dangers with which she is threatened. --

The report amended by placing the choice of the President in the house of representatives, each State having one vote.

It was moved and seconded to insert the following clause after the words "throughout the United States" in the first sect. of the report.

"The Legislature may declare by law what officer of the "United States shall act as President in case of the death, "resignation, or disability of the President and Vice President; "and such Officer shall act accordingly, until such "disability be removed, or a President shall be elected"

It was moved and seconded to insert the following amendment after the words "a member or members from two thirds of the States" in the 1st sect of the report.

"and the concurrence of a majority of all the States shall be necessary to make such choice."

The mode of constituting the Executive being resumed, Mr- Randolph moved < to insert in the first Section of the report made yesterday >

"The Legislature may declare by law what officer of the U. S-- shall act as President in case of the death, resignation, or disability of the President and Vice-President; and such officer shall act accordingly until the time of electing a President shall arrive."

Mr. Madison observed that this, as worded, would prevent a supply of the vacancy by an intermediate election of the President, and moved to substitute -- "until such disability be removed, or a President shall be elected --" Mr. Governr. Morris 2ded. the motion, which was agreed to.

It seemed to be an objection to the provision with some, that according to the process established for chusing the Executive, there would be difficulty in effecting it at other than the fixed periods; with others, that the Legislature was restrained in the temporary appointment to "officers" of the U. S: < They wished it to be at liberty to appoint others than such. >

N. H. divided. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del-- no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N-- C-- no-- S. C. ay-- Geo. ay [Ayes -- 6; noes -- 4; divided -- 1.]

Mr. Gerry moved "that in the election of President by the House of Representatives, no State shall vote by less than three members, and where that number may not be allotted to a State, it shall be made up by its Senators; and a concurrence of a majority of all the States shall be necessary to make such choice". Without some such provision five individuals might possibly be competent to an election, these being a majority of two thirds of the existing number of States; and two thirds being a quorum for this business.

Mr. Read observed that the States having but one member only in the House of Reps. would be in danger of having no vote at all in the election: the sickness or absence either of the Representative or one of the Senators would have that effect

Mr. Madison replied that, if one member of the House of Representatives should be left capable of voting for the State, the states having one Representative only would still be subject to that danger. He thought it an evil that so small a number at any rate should be authorized, to elect. Corruption would be greatly facilitated by it. The mode itself was liable to this further weighty objection that the representatives of a Minority of the people, might reverse the choice of a majority of the States and of the people-- He wished some cure for this inconveniency might yet be provided--

Question on the 2d. part viz, "and a concurrence of a majority of all the States shall be necessary to make such choice" to follow the words "a member or members from two thirds of the States" -- It was agreed to nem: con:

Proceedings of Convention Referred to the Committee of Style and Arrangement

We the People of the States of New-Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New-York, New-Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North-Carolina, South-Carolina, and Georgia, do ordain, declare and establish the following Constitution for the Government of Ourselves and our Posterity.

The Government shall consist of supreme legislative, executive and judicial powers.

Sect. 1. The Executive power of the United States shall be vested in a single person. His stile shall be, "The President of the United States of America;" and his title shall be, "His Excellency." He shall hold his office during the term of four years, and together with the Vice President, chosen for the same term, be elected in the following manner.

Each State shall appoint, in such manner as it's legislature may direct, a number of Electors equal to the whole number of Senators and Members of the House of representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Legislature. But no Person shall be appointed an Elector who is a member of the Legislature of the United States, or who holds any office of profit or trust under the United States.

The Electors shall meet in their respective States and vote by ballot for two Persons of whom one at least shall not be an inhabitant of the same State with themselves. -- and they shall make a list of all the Persons voted for, and of the number of votes for each, which list they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the general Government, directed to the President of the Senate.

The President of the Senate shall in the presence of the Senate and House of representatives open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted.

The Person having the greatest number of votes shall be the President (if such number be a majority of the whole number of the Electors appointed) and if there be more than one who have such a majority, and have an equal number of votes, then the House of representatives shall immediately choose by ballot one of them for President, the representation from each State having one vote -- But if no Person have a majority, then from the five highest on the list, the House of representatives shall, in like manner, choose by ballot the President -- In the choice of a President by the House of representatives a quorum shall consist of a Member or Members from two thirds of the States, and the concurrence of a majority of all the States shall be necessary to such choice. -- and, in every case after the choice of the President, the Person having the greatest number of votes of the Electors shall be the vice-President: But, if there should remain two or more who have equal votes, the Senate shall choose from them the Vice President

The Legislature may determine the time of chusing the Electors and of their giving their votes -- But the election shall be on the same day throughout the United States

a more perfect union, to establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Sect. 1. The executive power shall be vested in a president of the United States of America. He shall hold his office during the term of four years, and, together with the vice-president, chosen for the same term, be elected in the following manner:

lang;(a)rang; Each state shall appoint, in such manner as the legislature thereof may direct, a number of electors, equal to the whole number of senators and representatives to which the state may be entitled in Congress: but no senator or representative shall be appointed an elector, nor any person holding an office of trust or profit under the United States.

lang;(b)rang; The electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for two persons, of whom one at least shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves. And they shall make a list of all the persons voted for, and of the number of votes for each; which list they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the general government, directed to the president of the senate. The president of the senate shall in the presence of the senate and house of representatives open all the certificates, and the votes shall then be counted. The person having the greatest number of votes shall be the president, if such number be a majority of the whole number of electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such majority, and have an equal number of votes, then the house of representatives shall immediately chuse by ballot one of them for president; and if no person have a majority, then from the five highest on the list the said house shall in like manner choose the president. But in choosing the president, the votes shall be taken by states, and not per capita, the representation from each state having one vote. A quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. In every case, after the choice of the president by the representatives, the person having the greatest number of votes of the electors shall be the vice-president. But if there should remain two or more who have equal votes, the senate shall choose from them by ballot the vice-president.

lang;(c)rang; The Congress may determine the time of choosing the electors, and the time in which they shall give their votes; but the election shall be on the same day throughout the United States.

New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Mr. Hamilton from New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia.

That the preceding Constitution be laid before the United States in Congress assembled, and that it is the Opinion of this Convention, that it should afterwards be submitted to a Convention of Delegates, chosen in each State by the People thereof, under the Recommendation of its Legislature, for their Assent and Ratification; and that each Convention assenting to, and ratifying the Same, should give Notice thereof to the United States in Congress assembled.

Resolved, That it is the Opinion of this Convention, that as soon as the Conventions of nine States shall have ratified this Constitution, the United States in Congress assembled should fix a Day on which Electors should be appointed by the States which shall have ratified the same, and a Day on which the Electors should assemble to vote for the President, and the Time and place for commencing Proceedings under this Constitution. That after such Publication the Electors should be appointed, and the Senators and Representatives elected: That the Electors should meet on the Day fixed for the Election of the President, and should transmit their votes certified signed, sealed and directed, as the Constitution requires, to the Secretary of the United States in Congress assembled, that the Senators and Representatives should convene at the Time and Place asigned; that the Senators should appoint a President of the Senate, for the sole Purpose of receiving, opening and counting the Votes for President; and, that after he shall be chosen, the Congress, together with the President, should, without Delay, proceed to execute this Constitution.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Section. 1. The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same Term, be elected, as follows

Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chusing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representation from each State having one Vote; A quorum for this Purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot the Vice President.

The Congress may determine the Time of chusing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States.

FYI.NRO had three excellent articles about the EC this week, and I had several e-mail correspondences with the author. My point, with which he agreed, is that in order to amend the Constitution, you need either 2/3 or 3/4 %...Congressional votes or state votes, and if you look at the number of SMALL states, and the number of large states that are controlled by the GOP, you will never reach the needed majority. After the 2000 election, there was a big cry by Dems, especialy Hilalry Clinton, about the need to abolish the EC. It died in about a day. Can you imagine Daschle, Dorgan, Reid, to name a few, coming home to their states and explainig why they were in favor of going to a popular vote for president, which would effectively take their home states OFF the electoral map forever?...The EC will never be changed..our founders were geniuses..

The EC will never be changed..our founders were geniuses..

I agree.
This thread was merely an attempt to point out the FACTS of their geniusness (a new word for the "Spell" feature it seems) in detail.

Just in case, some portion of, it may come in handy later.

Please don't mistake my comment as NOT appreciating your posting it. I'm glad you did. I enjoyed it, and it's bookmarked for later refernece as well..thanks again..

BTW..did you see tre three articles on NRO that I referenced...also well worth reading..regards..

BTW..did you see tre three articles on NRO that I referenced...also well worth reading..regards..

I have them now and will read when time allows. Thanks!

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