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KERRY GAFFE ON ITALY?
NRO The Corner ^ | Michael Ledeen

Posted on 10/13/2004 3:06:23 PM PDT by Brian Mosely

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To: Steven W.

Let's see now, he's insulted the Poles and the Italians. The word of this needs to get out. I think there are a lot of Poles in PA and a LOT of Italians in NYC. Let's see what these folks are made of.


61 posted on 10/13/2004 4:51:48 PM PDT by McGavin999 (If Kerry can't deal with the "Republican Attack Machine" how is he going to deal with Al Qaeda)
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To: Brian Mosely

If a Republican had said something like this, it would have been headline news in every paper in America, and the lead story on every network. Kerry says it, and we have to read the Italian press to learn about it.


62 posted on 10/13/2004 5:05:31 PM PDT by Brilliant
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To: backinthefold

You know it. Tell your extended family.

(Hey, I made your sauce tonight. It's to die for! Thanks so much!)


63 posted on 10/13/2004 5:07:05 PM PDT by annyokie (Here's your sign.)
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To: mabelkitty

"who the hell is he to determine the effectiveness of the Iraqi Army?"

I'm not talking about the effectiveness of the current Iraqi military. My comments were solely directed to the Iraqi military under Saddam.


64 posted on 10/13/2004 6:17:39 PM PDT by labard1
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To: Dems_R_Losers

Follow up with bugging local talk radio about this in PA and NJ.


65 posted on 10/14/2004 9:14:28 AM PDT by MeanWestTexan
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To: Spok
Would someone please tell me which countries are going to jump in Iraq so we can get out???

How about the veterans of the North Vietnamese army?

66 posted on 10/14/2004 12:38:26 PM PDT by syriacus (Last night Kerry proved he has the arrogance to put words in anyone's mouth if it will get him ahead)
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To: Brian Mosely

Kerry can't stop sticking his foot in his mouth. And just heard on Fox that Lynne Cheney came out and said Kerry's remarks about her daughter, Mary, were cheap and tawdry. So Ellen Edwards felt she had to strike back. Her remarks were insulting and stupid. She's made everything worse. So I guess Lynne won't be inviting her to the VP's mansion any time soon.


67 posted on 10/14/2004 12:43:10 PM PDT by hershey
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To: Imperialist

"""What were they watching on HBO? Is HBO the same in Italy as here in the US?""

It was probably the film by Nancy Pelosi's daughter, "Political Tourist" or something like that. I think it was just aired on HBO this weekend. Did anyone watch it?


68 posted on 10/14/2004 12:53:00 PM PDT by rampage8
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To: Brian Mosely

liberals consider Italians fair game, why I don't know

maybe tony could pay him a visit


69 posted on 10/14/2004 1:13:29 PM PDT by Taffini (I like Tony Soprano even though he is a fat boy.)
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To: rampage8

"It was probably the film by Nancy Pelosi's daughter, "Political Tourist""

Thanks for the info, and no I didn't watch it, I never heard of it.

Kerry is such a dork.


70 posted on 10/14/2004 1:36:23 PM PDT by Imperialist
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To: labard1
For your information, it's called 'Anti-Italian Propaganda', and was used by her enemies in WW2, as well as some of her allies in WW1 who were jockeying for a larger share of the spoils of victory at the Hall of Mirrors, and a greater place in history books. It's the reason why the Italian Army's defeat at Caporetto, (when they had no help from Allied manpower), was highly publicized throughout the allied nations, but France's mass mutiny, (while getting large amounts of Allied manpower) threatened to end the war in Germany's favor, but was covered up by the U.S. and British Press. However, modern Military Historians are now setting the record straight and seeing through that outdated propaganda. Isn't it about time you caught up with the truth? You're incorrect and outdated beliefs have gone the way of the "Polish Joke". Please educate yourself. Here's some info you might be interested in.......

1. 'Caporetto: the Scapegoat Battle', By Ronald Seth, London, 1965

2. 'Six Months On The Italian Front', By Julius M. Price, London, 1917

3. 'The War On The Italian Front', By Luigi Villari, London, 1932

4. 'Italy And The World War', By Thomas Nelson Page, New York, 1920

5. 'In Death's Fortress', By Joseph Gal, New York, 1937

6. 'Sardinian Brigade', By Emilio Lussu, 2000

7. 'Isonzo: The Forgotten Sacrifice of the Great War', by John R. Schindler, London, 2001

8.'Fight For The River', (Video), International Historic Films, 1996

The Italian Front: Italy in the Great War (Web Site, The Great War Society)

'The Sergeant in the Snow' (WW2), By Mario Rigoni Stern, 1998

'Few Returned: Twenty-eight Days on the Russian Front, Winter 1942-1943', By Eugenio Corti

Comando Supremo: Italy At War (WW2) Web Site

Italian Army, Afrika Corp (WW2)

The 'Italian Folgore' today #1

The 'Italian Folgore' today #2

The Folgore

THE 'NEMBO' (WW2)

The Incursori

The Bersaglieri

The Arditi (Italian Suicide Troops

Some Italian Military Facts.......

1. "The first aerial bombing on record is initiated in the 1911 Italo/Turkish war.

2. The Italians were the first to use tanks and Aircraft in the desert.

3. The first flamethrower tank is developed by the Italians in the form of the cv3/35 flamethrower tankette.

4. The last example of a classic cavalry attack is preformed along the river Don by the Italian Cavalry, a force of 600 routing and capturing 1000-2500 Siberian Shocktroops who in addition had Soviet mortar and artillery support.

5. Italy was the first country to Develop the Sub machine gun (in WW1)

6. Because of the successful use of flamethrowers in Abyssinia, the Germans who had considered it a product of static trench warfare and therefore had abandoned it, reinstated it into their arsenal.

7. Naval sabotage weaponry originated in WW1. It was developed primarily by the Italians to defeat the Austrians. Frogmen were distinctly Italian, and in ww2 Italian frogmen in attacks had put out of action battleships,cruisers and tons of shipping. They even had plans to attack N.Y. harbor, the Decima is the grandfather of all current navy seals/frogmen special forces.

8. Italians were also the innovators of the high speed torpedo boat,and in WW1 , and in WW2 were highly successful with them taking out cruisers and battleships with motorboats.

9. Italian naval architect General Vittorio M.Cuniberti designed the dreadnought concept which was embraced by the world prior to WW1, and during the duration of WW1.

10. The Italians were one of the 1st nations to embrace motorized divisions ,this was seen in the Spanish civil war.

11. The Italian 47mm A.T. Gun was adopted by the allies as a paratroop drop support gun with captured examples, thereby this weapon was the first used in this role.

12. By 1943, Italian planes claimed 72 allied warships and 196 merchant ships. They had damaged over 500.

13. The Italians were the first to build all metal battleships, also the Italians were the first to use three gun turrets on their fighting ships.

14. Italy was one of the 1st countries to have camouflage uniforms."








"Although celebrated by Hemingway in A Farewell to Arms', the Italian front in the First World War has been relatively neglected in literature. And yet some of the fiercest fighting of the war took place in the Alps between the Italian army and the forces of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Over 650,000 Italians were killed, 947,000 wounded in the war."-'Sardinian Brigade', By Emilio Lussu

"This is the first account in English of a much-overlooked, but important, First World War battlefront located in the mountains astride the border between Italy and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Not well known in the West, the battles of Isonzo were nevertheless ferocious, and compiled a record of bloodletting that totaled over 1.75 million for both sides. In sharp contrast to claims that neither the Italian nor the Austrian armies were viable fighting forces, Schindler aims to bring the terrible sacrifices endured by both armies back to their rightful place in the history of 20th century Europe."-'Isonzo: The Forgotten Sacrifice of the Great War', by John R. Schindler, London.

'Isonzo: The Forgotten Sacrifice of the Great War'. "The first definitive English-language account of WWI's just-about-forgotten epic clash between Italy and Austria-Hungary. The dozen battles fought in the Isonzo valley stand out for the scale of their slaughter, cruelty, courage and ghastly military-command pigheadedness in the face of failure. After 29 months and 11 major offensives, the Italian Army had advanced only a few miles, at a cost of more than 1.1 million casualties. The Austrians, with the aid of several German divisions, finally launched their own offensive, known as "Caporetto." The Italians crumbled, and soon the Austrians were threatening Venice.

It's remarkable how long Italian troops fought and endured in the face of indescribable hardship. The Italian commander, Luigi Cadorna, had no concern for the state of his men. Trench conditions were appalling; medical facilities, dreadful (countless thousands of Italian soldiers died from cholera and malaria); leave, nonexistent; and infantry army pay, the worst in Europe, which meant incredible hardships for soldiers' families and contributed to plummeting morale. Discipline was barbaric."- Steve Forbes, Forbes Magazine

"It should be noted, that the act of Decimation, was a practice, and not just a threat in the Italian Army. Gen. Cadorna had 750 Italian Soldiers executed by firing squad, regardless of their fighting spirit, just to set examples.

These unfortunate men, who's only crime was to draw a short straw, regardless of their courage, were then branded "cowards" in official military dispatch. Their family homes and all their family's property was then proclaimed 'public domain'."

"In WW1 a million casualties were inflicted on this 200 mile front, ranging from the Mediterranean summer heat to the Arctic cold of the Alpine peaks, which made this one of the bloodiest battlefields of the world. It was fought over the river Isonzo which became synonymous with massacre, fear and despair for the soldier. Eleven major Italian offensives failed to break the Austro-Hungarian defenses and this is the story of massive allied failure against a background of huge undisclosed casualties. For the soldiers it was a war of endurance, artillery, mortar attacks, poison gas, machine guns, avalanches and rats.

It was here that Ernest Hemingway fell in love with a hospital nurse and wrote Farewell to Arms. It was here too that both Rommel and Mussolini served their military apprenticeship. -'Fight For The River', 1996

ITALIAN/AUSTRIAN WARFARE IN THE MOUNTAINS

"In the high mountains [Dolomiti, Adamello/Presanella and Ortler Ranges] during the three years of war, over 60,000 men on both sides would be killed in combat, by enemy gunfire. Some were company and battalion sized battles, others were remote mountaintop duels between patrols. Sixty thousand would freeze to death and at least 60,000 more would perish in avalanches, including a two-day period in December of 1916 that saw 10,000 troops being buried alive by the 'white death'.




THE ITALIAN FRONT

"Though the men of the Bell Tower considered the regular Army a sub-species, they held them in awe for making suicidal attacks, as on the Western and Russian fronts, in which they climbed out of their trenches and into a wall of machine-gun fire. On occasion, along a stretch of less than a kilometer, five thousand men might go over the top, and within a few minutes suffer a thousand instantly dead, a thousand wounded who would die slowly on the ground, a thousand grievously wounded, a thousand lightly wounded, and a thousand who were physically untouched but spiritually shattered for the rest of their lives, which, in some cases, was merely a matter of weeks."

"Horses that were lifted into the air on geysers of dirty blood and smoke, somersaulted and landed dead on their backs. Men were blown to pieces, vaporized, or slammed down by the shock waves. Others, who had taken shrapnel through their cheeks or their shoulders, staggered blindly away, but many of the wounded pointed their rifles and fired."- 'A Soldier of the Great War', By Mark Helprin, New York/London, 1991.

LJUBLJANA PASS

"For a few worthless pieces of soil, the Italians had paid with the blood of a quarter-million soldiers. The fighting was beyond praise for it's courage and resolution. There is no reason to scoff. It is wondrous that common soldiers would stick with such a repellent task. To brave death when every purpose is proved futile is the bitterest of all trials. We can only weep for these pitiful legions shattered on the rocks in a forlorn, long-ago attempt to gain the Ljubljana pass."- 'World War One', By S.L.A. Marshall.

Honored Soldier of the Great War, Giovanni Ellero (1878-1948). Combat Veteran of the Italian Front. Decorated for Valor, Italian-Turkish War (Libya/Africa)1911-1912, World War One 1915-1918, 3rd Army, First Line Trenches. Survived the the Carso/Piave/Isonzo Fronts; including the Battles of Gorizia, Montegrappa, Caporetto, Vittorio Veneto. Served in the Italian Royal Infantry from 1897-1900, 1911-1912, 1915-1920

Rare hand signed 8"x12" War period photograph of Italian Queen Elena. Signed and dated 1918, praising the good work of the nurse, Maria Teresa Guidi.

Rare hand signed 6"x10" ca. 1921 photograph of World War One Italian Commando Supremo, General Armando Diaz (1861-1928)

Very rare signed photograph, 7 3/8" x 11 ¼", of World War One Italian Commando Supremo, General Luigi Cadorna (1850?1928). He directed eleven major battles with limited results. He is credited with the successful defense in the Trentino (1916), the capture of Gorizia (1916), and the victory at Baensezza (1917). Replaced by Gen. Armando Diaz after the Fall of Caporetto. Cadorna, a poor tactician, with a 19th Century mind set (a common trait of old school military leadership during the Great War), threw his army away in repeated suicidal frontal assaults. A brutal disciplinarian, he implemented the rule of strict military punishment, by resurrecting the ancient Roman Army's practice of 'Decimation', in which one man in ten was picked at random and shot to death as an example to others. In this way, 750 Italian soldiers were executed during WW1.

Very scarce signed autograph of Italian Commando Supremo, General Luigi Cadorna (1850-1928) dated 7/12/1912

Original press photo, dated May 31, 1913. Showing the Italian Military's first Bianchi Armored Automobile. American Press Ass'n.

Original press photo, dated 1918. Showing one of the Italian Army's first two tanks. Produced by Fiat


Rare Death/Prayer Card of Italy's greatest fighter Ace of World War One, Major Francesco Baracca.

WW1 Italian Collar Star insignia, removed from the bodies of a dead Italian Soldier, and a dead Officer, by Dr. James Inches, Detroit, MI, Health Commissioner, serving at the Italian Front, and later given to E.P. Yerkes, Esq., in 1920.


~A few 19th Century Italian images~

Ca. 1880 Cabinet Card of Gen. Giuseppe Garibaldi

Cabinet Card of Italain scholar and writer, Ruggero Bonghi (1828-1895), with his personally signed autograph. One of Italy's greatest 19th Century politicians. Photograph by H. Le Lieure, Roma. Ca. late 1870's

Very rare hand signed CDV of Garibaldi, By Photographer Allessandro Pavia, taken in Milano, ca. 1870

Scarce CDV of Garibaldi's son Picciotti

Scarce CDV of Garibaldi's son Menotti

Rare CDV of Garibaldi's patriotic Daughter-in-law, and son Ricciotti's wife, Costanza Garibaldi. A talented Seamstress, she was well known for her beautiful embroidery work. Here she is wearing a "Red Shirt" of her own creation, bearing patriotic Italian symbols, motifs, and her name embroidered on the collar. Photographer is Fratelli Alinari, Firenze

Rare CDV of Garibaldi's General, Nino Bixio. Photographer, A. Duroni, Milano

"One of a Thousand".Ca. 1890 photograph of a proud Veteran of Garibaldi's Red Shirt Volunteers, Burano Bedeschini (personally signed by him), posing with his original red shirt and decorations of the Risorgimento

Photo of Red Shirt Volunteer, Pietro Di Biaggio, ca 1863. A heroic soldier, personally honored by Garibaldi

Ca.1865 CDV of a Pontifical Zouave. A fully armed, equipped, and decorated veteran of the battles against Garibaldi. The Pope's Cross Ribbon decoration indicates that he was a Volunteer who served in Major O'Reilley's Papal Brigade. Photographer, Fratelli D'Alessandri, Roma

CDV of Antonio Andrea Arrighi. A former Italian Galley Slave who endured years of torture. At the age of 9 years old he served as a Drummer Boy under General Garibaldi, where he was wounded and captured during the Siege of Rome. He remained a prisoner for two years, receiving 17 lashes across his back, on release. Years later he came to America and fought in the Civil War, serving in Company G of the 10th Illinois Cavalry, from September 1861 to November 1865. In 1869 he became an Ordained Protestant Minister, serving as a Missionary for the next 40 years. Photographer, H.G. Smith, Boston, Mass.

Ca.1863 signed CDV of Hiram Powers (1805-1873). Born at Woodstock, Vermont. Arguably America's greatest sculptor of the 19th Century. Personally autographed by him. Though not Italian by birth, Powers, adopted Italy as his home. Moving his studio to Florence in 1837, he remained there with his family until his death, and is buried there. His sons opened a flourishing photography studio in Florence, of which this CDV is a product. Photo by Freres Powers, Photographie Americaine, 103, Via dei Serragh, Florence.

"Brothers in Arms".Extremely rare ca.1860's Tintype of two Italian Bersagliere

~Some Related 19th Century Italian Items~

1870 Hand colored French litho, titled at top border, 'GARIBALDI ET SES VOLONTAIRES (Combattant Les Prussiens). Bottom border, "EN AVANT! VIVE LA FRANCE". No. 957, Nouvelle Imagerie d'Epinal. Imp. Lith. OLIVEIR-PINOT Edit. a Epinal. Desposito in Milano de P. Clerc. Depose P.V. 16 1/2" x 12"

Very rare large 1860 Italian Battle Print. Stunning Italian Stone Lithograph of Garibaldi and his Red Shirts at the Battle of Melazzo. Scanned image only shows a small portion of Litho. Titled at bottom border, 'COMBATTIMENTO DI MELAZZO' (20 Luglio 1860). F. Vittosi dis. Lit. A Vallardi 24" x 20"

1854 Engraving of Gen. Garibaldi at the Siege of Rome 1849. The Illustrated London News, July 1, 1854. 16" x 12"

1860 Engraving of Gen. Garibaldi. Harper's Weekly, June 9, 1860. 15 1/2" x 11"

1882 Engraving of Gen. Giuseppe Garibaldi. Published as a supplement to 'The Graphic', June 10, 1882, 8 days after his death on June 2nd. 12" x 16"

King Victor Emmanuel II. Rare Hand colored Music Sheet Cover. 1850. 10 1/2" x 13 1/2"

Hand Colored Sheet Music titled the, 'GARIBALDI GRAND MARCH' (Arranged from the National Hymn "Viva Italia"), by Florian Agosty, Boston. 10 1/2" x 13 1/2", 8 pages

1859 Sheet Music titled, 'GEN. GARIBALDI'S GALOP: (After The Austrians)', Composed by A. Silex, Publ. by Oliver Ditson, Boston. 10 1/2" x 13 1/2", 6 pages

General Garibaldi, (1807-1882). Chromolithograph, ca. 1880. From a photograph by Mess., Maull & Co. London. 8" x 10 1/2"

King Umberto I [Humbert], (1844-1900). Chromolithograph, ca. 1880. From a photograph by the London Stereoscopic Co. Cassell, Petter, Galpin & Co. Lith. London. 8" x 10 1/2"/h3>

Silk of Gen. Garibaldi. Made in 1860 and so dated, by F. Weber. Trudinger & Co., a Bale', 6" x 4".

Silk bookmark of Gen. Garibaldi. Incribed, 'ROME OR DEATH'. 19th Century. 9"x1 1/2". Excellent and in complete original condition

Extremely rare and historical, personal prayer book carried by Col. John Whitehead Peard, known as 'Garibaldi's Englishman'. This English Book of Common Prayer, printed in London in 1720, bears Peard's signed autograph on the first page of prayer, and his personal heraldic armorial book-plate (inside front cover) showing a dragon with an arrow through it's neck, above two war dogs, bearing their teeth, and on the attack. Original covers and binding in excellent condition. 6-1/2" x 4", 486 pgs, Latin.

Signed letter by General Giuseppe Garibaldi (1807-1882), Rome 2/15/1876, discussing the political and military situation of the Balkan states. 8 1/2" x 10 1/2", 1 page

Signed letter by Ricciotti Garibaldi. Son of Gen. Garibaldi & Anna Maria de Jesus da Silva (a.k.a., "Anita" Garibaldi) 4 1/2" x 7", 1 page

Signed letter by General Giuseppe Avezzana (1797-1879), New York, 8/22/1850. Great content. Speaks of Garibaldi, Mazzini, the ship 'HMS Vengeance', and his patriotism for Italy and the United States. 8 1/2" x 10 1/2", 1 page

Signed letter by Alessandro Gavazzi (1809-1889) The Army Chaplain to the Thousand Red Shirt Volunteers. He was twice General Garibaldi's personal chaplain (1860 & 1866). 7" x 9", 2 pages

Signed letter by Giuseppe Mazzini (1805-1872) Italian patriot and founding revolutionary of the Risorgimento. 3 1/2" x 4 1/2", 1 page

Signed mourning letter by Felice Cavallotti (1842-1898). Italian politician, author, and patriotic soldier of the Thousand Red Shirts. Rome, 6/6/1883. Killed in his 33rd duel on March 6th 1898, "run through" by the saber of Ferrucio Macola, director of the "Gazette of Venice", at one time his fervent admirer. 5 1/2" x 4 1/2", 2 pages

Signed letter by Baron Sidney Sonnino (1847-1922) Early politician of Italian Unification, author, and Italy's Foreign Minister during the Great War of 1915-1918. Firenze, 12/27/1877. 7" x 4 1/2", 2 pages

Signed letter by Tommaso Salvini (1829-1915) World Famous Italian Actor. He won international recognition for his portrayal of great tragic heroes. He was best known for the role of Shakespeare's 'Othello'. At 20 he became a soldier and fought in the Revolution for Italian Independence in 1849. He took an active part in the war and became the friend of Mazzini, Garibaldi and Saffi, and together with them was taken prisoner at Genoa. He was rewarded for his courage by a gold medal and the title of officer, and in the diploma given him by General Avezzana, received honorable mention for his patriotic zeal and valiant conduct. Lille, France, 2/3/1878. Great content. 8" x 5 1/2", 8 pages, Personal stationary.


71 posted on 10/14/2004 4:35:37 PM PDT by Main Street (Stuck in traffic.)
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To: Main Street
I like the Italians, but it's hard to take them seriously as soldiers, at least through WWII. Were my paraphrased quotes not actual statements? Isn't it true that the Fascists did so badly that they drew the Nazis into bailing them out in Greece, delaying Hitler's attack on Russia, and probably saving Stalin in the process? Have the Italian military beaten ANY foreign enemy in a war in the last few centuries, other than the aborigines in Ethiopia? Victories in the Italian unification don't count.

It doesn't move the Italian military up much in my book to know that they were better than the French. Even the Italians I know don't have a very high view of Italy's military since Roman days. I've been clear that I think highly of the current government, and I confess that I have no idea how good they are today.
72 posted on 10/14/2004 7:34:28 PM PDT by labard1
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To: labard1
And I like you too, labard1, but it's hard to take you seriously as knowledgably of the Italian military man, at least up to now.

"Were my paraphrased quotes not actual statements?"-labard1

And because somebody said it, automatically makes it true??

Here are two more...

"The Japanese make bad pilots and mediocre sailors, because their eyesight is bad and they are not very bright."

"The German soldier amazed the world, the Italian Bersaglieri amazed the German soldier."-Rommel

Which one is based on experience?? And which is based on propaganda??

"Have the Italian military beaten ANY foreign enemy in a war in the last few centuries, other than the aborigines in Ethiopia? Victories in the Italian unification don't count."-labard1

Did you read my post? If you had, or had really known anything about Italian Military History (other than a pretty biased one) you would have realized they had beaten the Austro-Hungarian Empire in WW1. But I'm sure "that don't count" either.

Anyways, I know how this goes. We can go back and forth on why Italy had any defeats at all! I could mention poor General tactics, leadership, outdated and poor equipment, consistent lack of artillery support, no leave or R & R at the front for Italian combat soldiers, as compared to all other combat forces engaged, defeatist leftist propagandists sent into the trenches as punishment, no food, Italian priests giving the Italian soldiers their Last Rights before frontal assaults, brutal discipline, summery executions, all which contributed to low moral. Or that in WW2 the common Italian soldier besides using the same outdated rifles designed in 1892, had no real interest in fighting on the side of an historic enemy, against an allied force of which most had family in, ect., ect,. But it would do no good. You're comfortable in your bias against the fighting ability of Italians. And there is really nothing I could post that would change it.

For me, I come from a different point of view. Two of my great-grandfathers were members of Garibaldi's Red Shirt Volunteers. One, Carlo V. Lombardi (Charles Lombardi), was a Captain under Garibaldi and came to the U.S. after the Emancipation Proclamation to fight in the Union Army as an officer (Lieutenant, 39th U.S.C.T) during the American Civil War. He was killed at the Battle of Ft. Fisher in 1865. The other is Pietro Di Biaggio pictured in my post above.

A third Italian great-grandfather, William Ellero, was drafted into the Austro-Hungarian Army in 1858, serving with the Lancers in the Battle of Solferino, and was later discharged in 1863. He too came to the U.S. during the later part of the Civil War and served in the 15th North Carolina Infantry, CSA. His son, Giovanni (the Italian soldier pictured above with the Turkish hat) was my grandfather. Of his original battle group he was the only one to survive the Great War. They, along with over 600,000 Italian soldiers who were killed in WW1, and the over 200, 000 Italian soldiers who were killed in WW2, were good soldiers from a country which had/has a fraction of the population of the U.S. My other Italian grandfather volunteered in the American Army in 1917, and fought in France at the Battle of St. Mihiel in WW1 with the 32nd Red Arrow Division. I have too many relatives and family members who fought (and some died) in WW2, on both sides, to mention. Lest to say no one had a problem with them being Italian, or their ability to soldier well.

Anyways, for what it's worth, maybe you would be interested, but probably not. Here are some links. That's all I have to say on this. My best wishes to you.

http://www.comandosupremo.com/

http://www.worldwar1.com/itafront/

http://members.tripod.com/~nembo/nembopage.html

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-conflicts-periods/ww1/italian_army.htm
73 posted on 10/14/2004 11:26:24 PM PDT by Main Street (Stuck in traffic.)
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To: Main Street
"I could mention poor General tactics, leadership, outdated and poor equipment, consistent lack of artillery support, no leave or R & R at the front for Italian combat soldiers, as compared to all other combat forces engaged, defeatist leftist propagandists sent into the trenches as punishment, no food, Italian priests giving the Italian soldiers their Last Rights before frontal assaults, brutal discipline, summery executions, all which contributed to low moral. Or that in WW2 the common Italian soldier besides using the same outdated rifles designed in 1892, had no real interest in fighting on the side of an historic enemy, against an allied force of which most had family in, ect., ect,"

You've correctly called me on the imprecision of my statement. I had no desire to deprecate the qualities of the individual Italians who served in its military, only that the Italian military was pathetic in the field. The reasons you cite above for the inaccuracy of my comments are entirely consistent with the point I was trying to make. Lousy leadership and logistics, poor equipment and morale all make for a lousy military, regardless of the fine "warrior" qualities of the individual soldiers.
74 posted on 10/15/2004 7:14:09 AM PDT by labard1
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To: Brian Mosely

It's easy to figure out...France has always been jealous of Italy because everyone with taste buds knows that Italy really has the better wine.


75 posted on 10/15/2004 7:15:21 AM PDT by Scott from the Left Coast
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To: Scott from the Left Coast

France has always been jealous of Italy because everyone with taste buds knows that Italy really has the better wine.

And the better food.



76 posted on 10/15/2004 8:22:07 AM PDT by labard1
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