How to stop national ID card

WorldNetDaily ^ | 10-7-04 | Rick Warden

[Warden]

Stage Setting For The Mark Of The Beast Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Beware of the New World Order of which you are in the midst!

[Major_Risktaker]

A national ID card will not get rid our country of illegal aliens.

[Publius6961]

Psssst.
Paul?

This has pretty much been the case for years. It's called a Social Security Card.

The original name was We're Gonna Git Ya Succah! card, but it was voted down.

[Publius6961]

Which is worse being overrun or controlled?

This is the crucial point that the pompous parrots overlook. Either way we're "controlled".

[Gerasimov]

Oh yes ... the fraud is going to be rampant this year.

I'm in Montgomery County where we have 600 precincts and need one Republican observer in each precinct all day in order to make sure things don't go too nuts. I think most county campaign HQ's are doing the same... call and volunteer to work election day if you can!

Check out This article for some links to examples of fraud here in Ohio!

[Major_Risktaker]

I'm a police officer and we are constantly running into people, generally Mexicans but sometimes others, who speak little English (or pretend not to) and who have NO U.S. issued identification.

If they are illegally in the US, deport them.

[Designer]

"Since the Bible prophecies the mark of the beast, how could anyone stop it?"

My understanding of Revelations is that it is both a prophecy and a warning. Effectively; if you don't put a stop to The New World Order, this is what will happen.

Also, we are commanded by Jesus to not stop trying until He returns.

[Gerasimov]

ROFLMAO

"If they are illegally in the US, deport them."

Yeah, you would think it works that way, wouldn't you? Not even close. First, we have no real way of verifying who they are, so even if they happen to be on an INS wanted list, we would never know. Secondly, very very very few illegals are wanted for deportation by the INS. Don't even try to suggest calling the INS at 3:00 a.m. (or 1:00 p.m. for that matter) to get it sorted out... they aren't interested. If they've done nothing else illegal, your local cops have no way of protecting you by holding or locking these people up.

It should infuriate you.

[Major_Risktaker]

Anything, But Christianity.

Who do you think is doing this?

Also, I have a passport.
Is this document like a National ID?

And one more thing.

I'm feeling a little creepy when their are cameras recording my every movement (or traced) when I drive, go to banks and my local Home Depot has more cameras than a Las Vegas casino with no people there to help you.

When I use bank issued Debt/Charge Cards or a cell phone you can be tracked. You car has GPS that can track your movement.

My Internet use is being watch as I type this comment and all phone call are being recorded or scrubbed for words.

Were not ever talking about Satellites or the Surveillance Blimp over Washington DC last week. This event occurred the same day Sec. Ridge of Homoland Security said "or southern border is secure" while a spy blimp hovers 500 ft. overhead while I walk down Connecticut Ave.

One more story.

Building a "Common Civic Identity" Symposium Woodrow Wilson International Center Washington September 23, 2004

Woodrow Wilson, that great President that created the IRS, Federal Taxes, Trust Funds, Federal Reserve, The League of Nations "UN", the 17th amendment and WWI.

And your worried about a National ID/Drivers License Card?

[Major_Risktaker]

First, we have no real way of verifying
who they are, so even if they happen
to be on an INS wanted list, we would never know.

Secondly, very very very few
illegals are wanted for deportation by the INS.

Don't even try to suggest calling
the INS at 3:00 a.m. (or 1:00 p.m. for that matter)
to get it sorted out... they aren't interested.

____________________________

The INS in the 1994-2004 time period has no logic,
therefore Captain why does it exist?

[unlearner]

"My understanding of Revelations is that it is both a prophecy and a warning. Effectively; if you don't put a stop to The New World Order, this is what will happen. Also, we are commanded by Jesus to not stop trying until He returns."

I don't intend to be rude, but your understanding of Revelation and other scripture is not well informed.

The Bible is a book that must be handled with great caution and respect. It can be misconstrued and twisted if we do not study it carefully and with a willingness to make changes in our own lives.

Look at God's plan that Christ was to die on the cross for the sins of the world. When it came time for Christ to die, He said "What shall I say? Father save Me from this hour? But for this cause I came to this hour. Father glorify Your name." (John 12:27-28) Several times He explained to His disciples that the prophecies "must be fulfilled". (See Luke 24:44) It was not God's goal, but Satan's, to delay and prevent God's plan of redemption:

"From this time, Jesus began to show His disciples how He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took Him and began to rebuke Him, saying 'Be it far from You, Lord, this will not happen to You.' But He turned and said to Peter, 'Get behind Me, Satan: for you do not desire the things of God but those of men.'" (Matthew 16:21-23)

Satan is not in any hurry for these prophecies (like the mark of the beast) to be fulfilled. He wants to delay everything. He wants more time. Christians are told to be "looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God" in 2 Peter 3:12.

You are right that prophecies do contain warnings for us. But our job is not to prevent the mark of the beast from happening (nor help it), but we are to warn others not to accept it, and be prepared to endure the coming persecution.

The possibility that anti-christ could exploit a national ID and turn it into a mark of the beast is not a reasonable basis to oppose such an ID. (Of course the benefits or dangers of such an ID are subject to debate, just not on this basis.) It could just as easily be argued that we should oppose the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem because the anti-christ is going to set up his throne there. Or even, some might say we should hide our money under our mattresses because anti-christ will get power through financial institutions.

Every time there is a discussion of identification standards, the mark of the beast argument pops up. Let's lay this to rest and debate the subject on its own merits.

[unlearner]

"It is not the responsibility of God-ordained authority to require all their subjects to submit an ID card before they can engage in business and commercial transactions or deal with government agencies. I am not aware of any Scriptural warrant that justifies the civil authority to interfere with freedom of association and private property, which of course mandatory IDs represent. Rather, this represents a form of theft (alienation of property), which is forbidden by the Eighth Commandment. The civil magistrate is no more above the moral law than are his subjects."

You can make the same argument against traffic laws. Where does the Bible say government should tell people which side of the road to drive on? This is an infringement on our personal liberty. </sarcasm>

Requiring proof of one's identity when voting or driving or making financial transactions is not theft by any stretch of imagination. This kind of hysteria, overreaching, and misrepresentation of the Bible does a lot to damage the credibility of Christians.

[Wallace T.]

Would you have found Jesus Christ to be hysterical, overreaching, and misrepresenting Scripture when He cleared the moneychangers from the Temple grounds twice during His earthly ministry? No doubt his actions were in defiance of the civil statutes of His day. Did the apostles Peter and John overstep the bounds of propriety when they told the authorities in Jerusalem: "But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard." (Acts 4:19-20) In Acts 16, the apostle Paul called upon his jailers, who beat and imprisoned him, to obey the laws relative to the treatment of Roman citizens, which he was. Psalms 2:10-12 emphasize the command to civil rulers to serve and fear God. "Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."

Jesus and the Apostles taught us to honor, obey, and respect those in authority over us. However, they also recognized that said authority is limited. "And He (Jesus) said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's." (Luke 20:25) Look at the laws of the commonwealth of Israel, as outlined in Deuteronomy and elsewhere in the Pentateuch. The role of the civil magistrate was highly restricted to the preservation of civil order, the fairness of weights and measures, and defense of the nation from foreign invasion. Acts of charity were to be handled by the priests, the Jewish "church." Trade, farming, the crafts, etc. were only regulated to ensure honest weights and measures. In the areas of charity and economics, the civil government did not intervene. Of course, these were laws for the commonwealth of Israel, which ended with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. However, the principles of civil governance found in the Bible should serve as a role model for our times, adapted for the different functions of ancient Israel and the modern Christian church.

Our own American history provides precedent to establish the fact that many Christians recognized that magistrates are subject to moral law. Furthermore, resistance, even to the point of revolution, is justified when governments defy that law. There is an underlying principle in English common law and history, dating to the rebellion of the noblemen against King John, which led to the Magna Carta, that supports this position. Several clergymen, such as John Witherspoon, were among the leaders of the War for Independence.

Your analogy of government run entities, such as roads and elections, with privately run entities, such as banks, is a false one. The government owns the roads and the voting booths and thus may set standards for those items it owns. Banks and credit unions are private enterprises that are not owned by government. It is beyond the proper jurisdiction of government to force bankers to demand identification from customers before they can do business with said bank. The same could be said for other laws that interfere with the use and enjoyment of private property where such use and employment. Such laws are contrary to the teaching of Scripture in these matters.

[Warden]

"First, we have no real way of verifying who they are,.. If they've done nothing else illegal, your local cops have no way of protecting you by holding or locking these people up."

Maybe dropping out of the system is not such a bad idea after all. If I thought the government would not be able to identify me nor hold me in jail, then I would just tear up my current identification and claim I do not speak English.

[unlearner]

"Your analogy of government run entities, such as roads and elections, with privately run entities, such as banks, is a false one. The government owns the roads and the voting booths and thus may set standards for those items it owns. Banks and credit unions are private enterprises that are not owned by government. It is beyond the proper jurisdiction of government to force bankers to demand identification from customers before they can do business with said bank. The same could be said for other laws that interfere with the use and enjoyment of private property where such use and employment. Such laws are contrary to the teaching of Scripture in these matters."

You missed the point. Sure banks can decide whether to require ID. Why do they? Because they need to be sure you are who you say you are. Similarly, the police need to be sure who someone is when they are pulled over for a traffic violation.

If it is the job of government to punish theft, then that gives them the responsibility to protect property. Our nation is wealthy, in part, because of the respect for property ownership that is encoded into our laws (even if there has been an erosion). It is necessary in determining proper title to a property to have some way to ascertain the claimant is who they claim to be. This is what ID is.

Like I said, you missed the point. You stated that government owns voting booths and can regulate those. Yet you argue that a national ID violates the teachings of the Bible (if I understand what you are saying).

In answer to your question, no I do not consider anything Christ did "hysterical, overreaching, and misrepresenting Scripture". You said "No doubt his actions were in defiance of the civil statutes of His day." Actually, He cast out the money changers for fraudulently charging to exchange Roman money for Jewish currency at a profit AND setting up shop in the courtyard of the temple.

This area of the temple was the only place available for gentiles to worship and pray, as they were not allowed beyond it. So Gentiles who were seeking God would come to the courtyard of the temple to pray. The moneychangers had literally turned this area into a stinking zoo. What Christ did was to defend the honor of the temple and God's reputation - He is the God of all people. And so it says, "My house shall be called a house of prayer for all people, but you have made it a den of thieves."

To extrapolate this and other scriptures as a command not to have a national ID system, is to twist scripture to your own preferences.

Perhaps you are concerned that an ID will become required to buy and sell (like the mark of the beast). That is a reasonable concern for Christians and non-Christians alike. I would agree that this would be dangerous.

But I support standardizing state ID and drivers' licenses, and requiring positive identification when voting. I think having and presenting ID should be optional. For those who do not want an ID, or have lost their ID, on the spot fingerprinting could be used as positive identification without disenfranchising anyone. This would help stop voter fraud without encroaching on our liberties.

[Wallace T.]

My concerns in this matter have nothing to do with eschatology. It is possible that a national ID card would lead to an implanted chip, which may in turn be "the mark of the beast." However, that is only speculation, not necessarily supported by Scripture. The issue rises above the positions of amillenialists, premillenialists (both dispensational and historic), and postmillenialists (both theonomist and historic) relative to end times events. Further, it should concern all citizens, Christian or not.

My concern relates to the proper role of government in human society. Would you argue that all governments are legitimate, irrespective of the degree to which they impinge on human liberty? How about Communist regimes like those of Mao, Stalin, and Pol Pot? Or Nazi Germany? Or nations under Islamic sharia law? Or various past tyrants like Ivan the Terrible, Genghis Khan, or Nero? If the moral law taught in the Bible is correct, these regimes were wildly immoral. The massive crimes of these governments are essentially those of murder and theft, performed on a grand scale.

The "Western democracies" have committed crimes against persons and property on a scale far less than those tyrannies. Nonetheless, the excessive tax rates, intrusion into areas to be left to the individual, the family, and the church, and interference in business and social affairs represent theft. A property owner who loses the best and highest use of his land because of an environmental regulation is the victim of theft as much as a person mugged by a criminal. A businessman who is compelled to hire less qualified people in order to comply with civil rights laws is the victim of coercion as much as is the store owner compelled by the Mafia to pay protection. The working man who is forced to pay a large portion of his wages in income, sales, and property taxes, much of which goes to line the pockets of government favored contractors, poor people (deserving or not), and an army of bureaucrats is as much abused as were the slaves and indentured servants of yore. A central banker who debases the currency through monetary inflation is a far more effective thief than the white collar criminal. Martha Stewart, Dennis Koslowski, Michael Milken, et. al, depreciated the stock value of a small group of individuals; inflation robs from all by devaluing the currency.

Simply put, governments (and I am talking about all levels of government: Federal, state, and local) cannot do what is forbidden to individuals. Government officials cannot baptize theft and coercion that would be forbidden to them acting as individuals if they act in the name of "the proletariat," "the Aryan Race," "the will of Allah," or "the people".

Going back to the issue of banks, if the management of a bank chooses to ask for a photo ID before a customer performs a transaction, that is the business of that bank. However, current statutes mandate that all banks require such identification irrespective of the decision of the bank management. Such compulsion is an unwarranted interference with the rights of property and self-governance of the bank and thus does constitute a form of theft, forbidden by the Eighth Commandment.

The issue of voter identification being equivalent to a national ID is incorrect. Local governments have conducted elections for several centuries. If not by personal recognizance, then other means, usually a voter registration card, has been used.

You may say that I am baptizing the political philosophy of John Locke and Thomas Jefferson. I recognize that these men were human and had erroneous thoughts in several areas of life. However, the limited government philosophy best comports with Biblical morality and its prohibition of theft and emphasis on a division of authority among various institutions in society.

[unlearner]

Local banks are FDIC insured. I think requiring photo ID to withdraw funds is not unreasonable. Alternatively, I can get funds with my ATM card, Visa debit card, or by writing a check (which may not require ID). From experience, I know that I do not have to show ID when I make deposits. No one forces us to use banks, but it is more secure and convenient to most people.

Regarding your second point, it is true that voter registration cards are not the same as a national ID. That is why I think we need a national standard for acceptable ID issued by local governments.

Personally, I do not object to a national database of users of such an ID. But I realize some do object. I do not think such a database is essential to accomplishing the purpose of reducing voter fraud.

Do you think that federal government has no interest in insuring that people who vote do so legitimately?

[fire_eye]

I'm not following you. Are you claiming that it is unjust to punish criminals if the alternative is to abridge the rights of innocent people?

[pepsionice]

The minute that we all submitted for the social security number...we entered the system. There is no more "godly" arguments or personal reasons...we are in the system...like it or not.

And we can all admit that we carry a drivers license to drive at our leisure...so we accepted that without question.

I don't see the issue here. The national ID card has 3 major pluses. First, its a voting tool to ensure that you are registered to vote in one and only one state. Number two...its a tool for travel security and airports. And number three...it sets into place a requirement for all driver's licenses...you show up in one and only one state with a singular driver's license. For con artists...your days are numbered. For identify thieves...your days are numbered. For dual-voters...your days are numbered.

Accept "the mark of the beast"...its already a guaranteed thing...since the bible says that. And surely....no one wants to challenge the bible.

[mabelkitty]

You can easily stop it by enforcing the laws on the books and putting people in prison - even the rich ones.

[mabelkitty]

It is my understanding that HR 10 included two things - sending illegals back where they came from and the ID card.