Posted on 09/30/2004 6:39:52 AM PDT by RonF
NORWALK (AP)- The Common Council has approved the use of a local park for a public event by a local troop of the Boy Scouts of America despite some concerns about the organization's ban on gays.
The council Tuesday night gave a permit to the organization to hold an outing at Shady Beach.
Councilmen Kenneth Baker and Peter Wien touched off the debate two weeks ago when the council's Parks Committee reviewed the Boy Scouts' permit application to use the park for a three-hour campfire and recruitment program.
Wien and Baker opposed issuing Norwalk Cub Scoutmaster Greta DeAngelis a permit because of national Boy Scout policy of banning homosexuals.
But other council members, Mayor Alex Knopp and some public speakers said the city could not deny the local group its First Amendment rights of free speech and assembly.
David Rennie, finance director for the Boy Scouts' Connecticut Yankee Council, told city officials they cannot "pick and choose" what groups to allow on public property "based on approval or disapproval of that group's message."
After Tuesday's meeting, DeAngelis said she was "pleased that the more rational side of our Common Council came forward tonight, and I am looking forward to a great event."
People complain that the courts legislate too much these days. True enough, but consider how often it happens because the executive and legislative branches abdicate their responsbilities because they'd rather keep their offices than their honor.
Isn't the Boyscout's history of using that park a little more impressive than the gay community's antics there?
NORWALK -- The Common Council last night gave a permit to a local Boy Scouts troop to hold an outing at Shady Beach despite some council members' concerns about supporting an organization that bars homosexuals.
"Maybe they should be called the Boy Scouts of Part of America," Councilman Kenneth Baker, a Democrat, said last night before abstaining from the vote.
Or maybe you should be called the representative of part of Norwalk.
Baker and fellow Democrat Peter Wien touched off the debate two weeks ago when the council's Parks Committee reviewed the Scouts permit application to use the park for a three-hour campfire and recruitment program. Wien and Baker opposed issuing Norwalk Cub Scoutmaster Greta DeAngelis a permit because of national Boy Scout policy of banning gay members. But fellow council members, Mayor Alex Knopp and a few public speakers last night said the city could not deny the Scouts its First Amendment rights of free speech and assembly.
David Rennie, finance director for the Boy Scouts' Connecticut Yankee Council, told city officials they cannot "pick and choose" what groups to allow on public property "based on approval or disapproval of that group's message."
Republican Registrar of Voters Karen Doyle Lyons, who brought her grandson dressed in his Eagle Scout uniform to the podium, said the city in the past has allowed churches to use parkland, as well as groups that favor abortion rights. "You will set a precedent to review all individuals and organizations before using public land," she said.
Barbara Amodio, chairwoman of the Norwalk Human Relations Commission, said: "We're all here to affirm each other's rights. If any one of us loses our rights, we all lose them."
Aren't Human Relations Commissions usually the bodies charged with enforcement of anti-discrimination ordinances? If so, this woman has gone out on a limb.
The controversy over Boy Scouts of America membership arose a few years ago, after the organization expelled James Dale, an Eagle Scout and assistant scoutmaster in New Jersey because he is gay. Dale sued and won reinstatement, but the Scouts took their case to the U.S. Supreme Court and, in 2000, prevailed.
Some council members said they had received letters over the past two weeks from residents. Many who supported the Scouts' right to meet in the park were openly anti-homosexual.
Council President Bruce Kimmel, who cast the lone 'no' vote last night, said: "Every community and individual has a moral obligation to do whatever is possible to eliminate the destructive consequences of discrimination from our society."
Yeah, forget that I took an oath to uphold the Constitution. My promises don't mean anything.
He said the Supreme Court decision was hardly decisive because it was 5-4.
Gee, I thought that a Supreme Court decision was decisive regardless of how close the vote is. Does this guy understand what the word "decision" means?
Rennie last night said the Boy Scouts is "one of the most inclusive youth organizations in the nation."
Certainly more inclusive than the GSUSA, the organization it's usually compared to in this context. After all, the GSUSA doesn't allow male youth to join at all, and doesn't allow male adults to be the primary leader in a unit. The BSA has a program for female youth ages 14 to 21 and allows female adults to hold any and all positions in it's units.
DeAngelis has said her troop does not discriminate, but Wien and Baker have said that, eventually, it has to abide by the national policy.
BSA policy is that if you insist on yapping about your sexual orientation, you have to leave. "Don't ask, don't tell" is a reasonable summary of the policy. Do they really think that there's that many kids and adults who can't stop talking about their sexuality that the result will end up being a lot of kids being kept out? There's plenty of other things to talk about and do things about than sex.
"Why invite those you do not want in your club?" Wien wrote in a statement read last night by Kimmel. Wien was out of town.
The BSA doesn't do this, and neither does this Troop, I'm sure. Perhaps Mr. Wein can't imagine someone who's gay that isn't obsessed about his sexuality enough that he can't keep his mouth shut about it around kids.
Baker said he had a hard time reconciling laws preventing municipalities and private employers from discriminating when city land can host an event that discriminates.
It's called "freedom of speech". Read the Constitution; it should be part of your job description, since any law you make has to conform to it. Why is it such a hard time figuring out that while being homosexual isn't a bar to making widgets or driving a truck, it could be a bar to teaching morals to children?
In an interview two weeks ago, DeAngelis expressed concerns about having homosexuals involved in scouting and sympathy for a scoutmaster she knew who lost his position because of the Scouts' policy.
I can sympathize with someone who's having problems struggling with his sexual orientation, but how did he lose his position in Scouting?
After last night's meeting, DeAngelis said she was "pleased that the more rational side of our Common Council came forward tonight, and I am looking forward to a great event." The vote was 12 to 1, with one abstention and one absent.
I don't know anything about this from a local perspective. Do you?
Check your Bible. Good morals have always been controversial. And always will be.
I don't think the Boy Scouts ask if you are homosexual, they say no if you are an obvious "proud" homosexual, if it is how you choose to identify yourself.
I would not want a Man who identifies himself as a heterosexual, as someone who loves women and seeks to have a sexual relationship with them regardless of age (NAMGLA anyone?) in charge of a Girl Scout Troop either.
The BSA never asks what your sexual orientation is. In fact, a Scout who was fired from a Staff position at Camp Yagoog (one of the best camps in the U.S.) for being homosexual was actually reinstated by the BSA after he appealed to National Council and it came out that his sexuality had only been confirmed because the Camp Director directly confronted him and asked him what his orientation is. The Scout, obeying "A Scout is Trustworthy", told the truth. Unlike some areas of the U.S. military, "Don't ask, don't tell" is enforced from both ends in the BSA.
And if I had a heterosexual leader who talked about his activities in front of the Scouts, he or she would find themselves out of our unit as well.
They should hang a gay guy pinata (no, not a human) in effigy, beat the crap out of it (candy prizes inside), then set it on fire. Just for spite and fun.
We'll create a new policy --
(1) gays are not banned.
(2) gays are not welcomed, and are opposed. But clearly and explicitly not banned.
Just to clarify the BSA did NOT ban gays. The do NOT want gay scoutmasters. Just the kind of job say an ex-priest might want so they'll have all those boys available, what in the hell is wrong with that?
As far as gay scouts goes, just shutup and everything would be fine, HOWEVER that is not the GAY AGENDA, they want the scouts to "do it their way".
Not personally. I was being facetious. Homos are notorious for using public parks to um, find a date if you know what I mean. The Boyscouts would certainly be using it for a more wholesome purpose than that.
Great points.
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