Iraq: Pesticides, Nerve Agents and the ISG

D. N. Yetter

[The_Reader_David]

I'd like to get some discussion going in advance of the Iraq Survey Group's final report. The topic: the finds of large numbers of drums of substances that field tested as nerve agents, but were later pronounced to be pesticides, at several Iraqi munitions dumps.

There is a Frontpage article which was posted here back in April when it was new.

I added a post to it's thread, but knowing that many FReepers probably do what I usually do and read the threads index to the Forum rather than the messages index, I though a new thread would be in order.

My post to the old thread is reproduced in the comment below.

FReepers with expertise in toxicology, organic chemistry, or CBW are particularly welcomed. Me, I'm just a guy in pajamas typing away in his bedroom.

[The_Reader_David]

BTTT. Why am I bumping an April article to the top now? Supposedly the ISG is coming out with its 'final report' any day now, and I've been doing a little looking into the question of 'pesticide drums' in military installations. It's a very important question which pesticides they contained. It is quite possible that not only did the Baathist regime, post 1991, convert their CW capacity to 'dual use' capacity, but that they even made their chemical weapons themselves into 'dual use' substances. The pesticide tetraethylpyrophosphate (TEPP) is as potent a choliesterase antagonist as Sarin. Estimates of the cutaneous LD50 (does at which half the victims die from a drop on the skin) for a 70 kg adult human (for some reason that's the standard) are 1700 mg for Sarin, and (extrapolating from the per kg LD50 in rats) 1680 mg for TEPP. See NERVE AGENTS, PESTICIDES, AND CHOLINESTERASE INHIBITION by John S. Nordin

I can't find LCI50 estimates (dose in terms of mg*min/m3 at which inhalation kills half of the victimes)for TEPP, but a public document Chemical Terrorism generated by the Canadian Intelligence Security Service, describes both TEPP and the less toxic parathion as "almost as toxic as their military counterparts".

Just because the stuff in the drums wasn't Sarin, cyclosarin, VX or any of the other standard nerve agents, and could be used as pesticide, doesn't mean we haven't found the WMD's.

[Numbers Guy]

Iraqi military bases obviously had a far worse cockroach problem than anyplace else in the country did.

[SandRat]

If I remember my Chem school training correctly both nerve agents and pesticides are organophosphates that interfere with the cholinesterase that controls muscles. Malathion 50% solution distilled down is nearly as lethal as VX a most portent nerve agent. Then the question is how to make is a binary agent two separate chemicals that are mixed in the delivery vehicle as it is fired and then rotates in flight. This provides the greatest safety factor for friendly troops, allows for easier storage and transport of two separate inert chemicals and generally allows for easier de-weaponization as the separate binaries can usually have a legitimate civilian use.

[Strategerist]

I don't remember any of those drums being found at locations that looked like "military installations." They looked like decrepit farms.

[The_Reader_David]

That's the question if a government which cares about the safety of its troops wants to use nerve agents. The Iraqi 'pesticide dumps' contained drums of stuff which caused symptoms of nerve gas exposure in those who investigated them, field tested positive for the presence of nerve agents, but then were pronounced to be pesticides. According to the original report (see the link in my original post), all the facilities where these were found also had lots of gas masks.

Plainly it was some sort of fairly nasty organophosphates in the drums, already potent enough to have dilaterious effects on folks poking around in the room where it was stored. Two possiblities suggest themselves: the Baathists decided to settle for using a pesticide which was of similar toxicity to Sarin (say within an order of magnitude) as a nerve agent, or they had a process whereby the pesticide and some very common chemical were the components of a binary agent.

[punster]

"I can't find LCI50 estimates (dose in terms of mg*min/m3 at which inhalation kills half of the victimes)for TEPP, but a public document Chemical Terrorism generated by the Canadian Intelligence Security Service, describes both TEPP and the less toxic parathion as "almost as toxic as their military counterparts". "

I don't think any one will be less dead, for being esposed to a lethal dose of TEPP, Parathion, etc. (all organophosphate cholinesterase inhibitors(, than being exposed to VX, Sarin, Tabun, etc.

The big difference between military nerve agents and commercial pesticides is: The military agents have a longer persistence in the environment.

[The_Reader_David]

Follow the link in my post and read the Frontline article in the old thread. One find was in a comouflaged underground bunker complex in an 'agricultural complex' located at a munitions dump, another was in 'one of the largest ammo
dumps in Iraq' just north of Baghdad.

[SandRat]

Heck they taught us in Chem School how to use, then common, 50% Solution Malathion into an agent, if used in aerosol form for inhalation in an unprepared target it could be guaranteed an LD rate of 35 out of 100. What's the surprise in this story other than it being overly PC and dealing with stupid $%%#@ cibilians/poli-tics-anz.

[The_Reader_David]

Exactly (though non-persistent agents can be even more useful than persistent ones if one wants to launch an attack or counterattack).

Which still leads to the question I asked originally: which pesticides were being horded in Iraqi military facilities?

[DTogo]

Some good news articles on WMD/pesticide finds summarized halfway down this webpage in a special section:

http://cshink.com

[MizSterious]

I have a listing of articles discussing such finds, but don't have time to post it right now--be back later with it.

[Fatalis]

" FReepers with expertise in toxicology, organic chemistry, or CBW are particularly welcomed. Me, I'm just a guy in pajamas typing away in his bedroom. "

I went to Google and it looks like there are a lot of older links to this story at Free Republic.

http://www.google.com/search?q=iraq+pesticides+organophosphates+nerve+agents+%22free+republic%22&num=20&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&safe=off&filter=0

[RBroadfoot]

I don't know if it's really relevant to your question, but I distinctly recall that, back when they were gassing Iranians in 1984 or 1985, Saddam Hussein said that were just spraying them with pesticide.

Back then the media reported the tactic as chemical warfare. I suppose, though, that pesticide doesn't quite qualify as a "weapon of mass destruction" in today's context.

[The_Reader_David]

I've looked at some of the numerous threads from April on the subject, but none seem to address the question of which pesticide. I do think it's vitally important to know that, as the LD₅₀ for some pesticides is about the same as for Sarin and higher than for Tabun, and one might expect the LC₅₀ to be similar as well.

Basically I want to argue, for some pesticides (TEPP in particular), just because it is a pesticide, doesn't mean it isn't nerve gas.

[The_Reader_David]

How nice of him to take care of his enemies' louse and cockroach problems! /sarcasm

The curious thing is, perhaps he was telling the truth. Do we have any evidence the mass Iranian casualties were caused by Sarin or VX rather than TEPP?

[fso301]

Anyone who can make pesticide can make nerve gas.

[The_Reader_David]

Absolutely. The point is not that. The point is that the stockpiles of pesticides found in ammunition dumps (see the old thread linked in my original post) may in fact be the supposedly mythical (pace the MSM) stockpiles of chemical weapons.

[Fatalis]

" Amb. Ekeus - did you restart VX production after the Iran-Iraq war?

General Hussein Kamal - we changed the factory into pesticide production. Part of the establishment started to produce medicine.

Smidovich asked if the General was referring to the Samarra Drug Establishment.

General Hussein Kamal - Samarra started to produce medicine with workers from Muthanna. Muthanna itself started production of pesticides and insecticides, but some of them turned out to be more difficult to produce than CW. "

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/un/unscom-iaea_kamal-brief.htm


So according to Kamal, Iraq has converted chem weapon plants to pesticide production before.

[Fatalis]

" PART ONE: Chapter 2: Iraq's Programmes: 1971-1988


1. Iraq has been involved in chemical and biological warfare research for over 30 years. Its chemical warfare research started in 1971 at a small, well-guarded site at Rashad to the north-east of Baghdad. Research was conducted there on a number of chemical agents including mustard gas, CS and tabun. Later, in 1974 a dedicated organisation called al-Hasan Ibn al-Haitham was established. In the late 1970s plans were made to build a research and commercial-scale production facility in the desert some 70km (42 miles) north west of Baghdad under the cover of Project 922. This was to become Muthanna State Establishment, also known as al-Muthanna, and operated under the front name of Iraq's State Establishment for Pesticide Production. It became operational in 1982-83. It had five research and development sections, each tasked to pursue different programmes. In addition, the al-Muthanna site was the main chemical agent production facility, and it also took the lead in weaponising chemical and biological agents including all aspects of weapon development and testing, in association with the military. According to information, subsequently supplied by the Iraqis, the total production capacity in 1991 was 4,000 tonnes of agent per annum, but we assess it could have been higher. Al-Muthanna was supported by three separate storage and precursor production facilities known as Fallujah 1, 2 and 3 near Habbaniyah, north-west of Baghdad, parts of which were not completed before they were heavily bombed in the 1991 Gulf War. "

http://www.al-bab.com/arab/docs/iraq/dossier02a.htm


It looks like Iraq was producing its chemical weapons in pesticide facilities from almost the very start.

[Fatalis]

" Another UNMOVIC team inspected the Al Mussaib Pesticide Store, which sells ready-to-use pesticides. The store had only one worker. On request, the National Monitoring Directorate brought two facility representatives with keys to all buildings and rooms. The team accomplished the inspection objectives. "

http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocusnewsiraq.asp?NewsID=289&sID=8

The UN weapons inspectors were looking into pesticides before the war. I think your questions about what pesticides we found there are good ones.