Bang List: What's your opinion of 12-gauge Flechettes?

SABOT DESIGNS LLC ^

[SlickWillard]

What do you thing of this ammunition?

Is it stable? Accurate? Lethal?

If you were PD/SWAT/Special Forces, would you use this ammunition in an "urban" anti-terrorism situation? [Assume your orders are something like "Maximize terrorist deaths while minimizing civilian deaths."]

Or are flechettes just a lot of fancy-schmantzy marketing gibberish?

Whether they're useful or not, they're certainly expensive. For instance, a single round of Federal 000 magnums [10 balls per shot] costs about $0.75:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/product.asp?sku=65647

Whereas a single round of Flechette Sabots [19 flechettes per shot] costs about $2.00:

http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/006.html

So: Any thoughts about this ammunition?

Thanks!

[chesty_puller]

I was very impressed with this ammo in Vietnam!

It worked great flying out of a 106mm rifle.

[SlickWillard]

If by "urban" you mean indoors or where you have worries about overpenetration

In my mind, the classic example of "urban" is Beslan Middle School #1 [see my post at #59 above].

[em2vn]

Did you shoot them from an M-79? Impressive!

[islander-11]

Should someone break into my home, we'll see how OO Buck will perform. My guess - pretty damn well!

Happiness in close quarters is a Remington 870 with a Surefire light on the rail...

[El Gato]

The Flechette Shell is mainly intended for penetrating body armor (flechettes are little darts

Sounds like a mix of these and buck in the magazine would be just the thing. If the goblins are wearing body armor, then the flechettes' will penetrate, but if they aren't the buck will be a better stopper.

But which to put in the chamber for that first round? I'd lean toward the buck, because even if you don't stop 'em with it, you probably slow them down enough to get in that second round of flechett, should it be required, and you might get luckey and hit an extremity, like the head, with one of the shot.

What are others' thoughts on the matter?

[Aut Pax Aut Bellum]

Flechettes are cool when they put a thousand or two in a 105 round. But in a 12 gauge , they are deadly, but lack knock down power. Simply mass x velocity. They lack mass. Your opponent might blled to death, but it won't put him down fast, unless one lucky nail hits a vital.

I'll take lots of round lead balls for knockdown every time...

[Redcloak]

Little darts leave little holes; and little holes don't leak nearly as much blood as great, big holes. That having been said, I understand that flechettes scared the hell out of the enemy in Vietnam. Their value seemed to be psychological in nature.

[Indie]

I understand that flechettes scared the hell out of the enemy in Vietnam. Their value seemed to be psychological

Ahh..and in Iraq dipped in pig fat... ;)

[El Gato]

Case you site a case where a guy was found guilty on a legit shooting based off of this? Ayoob likes to talk about this a lot but I have never actually heard of a case where it influenced the jury.

I think the question is mostly not one of guilt in the criminal trial, but rather of the level of damages you might get stuck with when the goblin, or his survivors, sue you in civil court.

After all, John Edwards will be needing work and ambulences to chase.

[flashbunny]

Then I'd definately go with an ar type platform (or maybe an accurized ak-74). If you have to worry about a civillian anywhere near your target, you don't want to use anything other than a slug out of a shotgun, no matter how accurate they might be. Too many things to bounce around if they miss. Plus with a good red dot type sight, you can have the ability to be accurate 100 yards or more away. You don't really get that with a shotgun.

[CurlyDave]

The US armed forces have stopped using them, not because they were ineffective, but because they were considered a violation of the Geneva convention.

[G.Mason]

"So is the thinking that even though 000 packs a bigger punch, there are more 00 balls, hence more probability that you will at least hit the target [even if you don't kill it on the first shot]?"

Nine .32 cal. (00 Buck) pellets flying out of a Remington 870 Express at up to say 60 yards is deadly.

Now if the perp is armored with Kevlar from head to toe we're probably talking about 30.06.

The M1 Garand, which can be had for about $400.00 from CMP ... http://www.odcmp.com/about_us.htm

will certainly do the job.

I'm an old timer and to me the "wheel" has already been invented. Also I tend to stay with that which I have had success with.

You know ... can't make an old dog ... ;)

[null and void]

I Dutch load. First round lots o' small pellets, to increase chances of a hit, subsequent rounds fewer larger pellets to penetrate denser cover as the perp trys to get in a better position, I end up with rifled slugs.

I didn't know flechettes were available to mere mortals like myself...

[flashbunny]

LEGAL CAUTION: Whenever you use a modified weapon or unusual ammunition you will be subject to the bad guys lawyer trying to prove malicious intent even in self defense.

Case you site a case where a guy was found guilty on a legit shooting based off of this? Ayoob likes to talk about this a lot but I have never actually heard of a case where it influenced the jury.

No, he can't. No one ever can. About 2 or 3 years ago I issued a challenge on my site and on many major gun boards: Find me one case where a person in a self defense situation was sued or prosecuted more than they would have been because they used custom ammo (handloads, specialty rounds) or a 'intimidating' type weapon.

For all the blustering the people who repeated this myth before, they were strangely silent when it came to coming out with actual examples. In all the time I had the challenge out there, NOT ONE PERSON was able to cite an actual case.

Don't worry about it. The claims are basically BS by people who feel the need to expound on something.

[AlBondigas]

FWIW, flechettes (& tracer & AP rounds) = illegal to posess in Calif.

[null and void]

Thanks, meatball.

[Melas]

Correction to you and others. They were good at penetrating previous generations of body armor. Modern body armor is designed to stop a 7.62mm rifle shell at point blank range, and still retain the ability to do it again.

[AlBondigas]

por nada !

[B4Ranch]

>>with a Surefire light on the rail...<<

In my home we use the small covered nightlights, like a clear Christmas light with a shield on the living room, dining room walls, hall and in the guest bathroom.

These outline anyone who is not in a bedroom very well without disclosing my location.