Posted on 09/16/2004 1:32:40 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
Hey bud, in reference to your post #16, what you have here is the inept meddling of Rice and Powell influencing Bush's position. Since Day 1, they've been on Russia's case for Chechnya. One would think they would get it by now, but obviously, human rights of terrorists takes precedence in their minds, as it does in yours. Go ahead and die at the hands of these murderers if that's your choice.
Agreed.
Now...do we not condemn the Russian troops who have committed atrocities in Chechnya, including murder, torture, and rape?
My problem is that once we start down the dehumanization road, we tend to blur the lines separating all Muslims from Islamic terrorists, and all Chechens from Chechen terrorists.
Perfect timing.
Look at post #21...no difference between Chechen and Chechen terrorists.
Ah!
The old "Bush is too stupid to think on his own" liberal mantra.
How DU of you!
yes, he always supports them, thinks the school attack was justified.....sigh.
there's one in every crowd.
As far as I know, Russia never held hostage an entire school full of children and shot those who fleed in the back.
I am aware of Chchneyan executions of Russian soldiers on video, usually by beheading.
Sorry, I can't agree with you on this.
I agree that there is evil in the world. Beslan was an evil deed perpetuated by terrorist who should be hunted down and interrrogated for every shred of info over their higher ups then dealt to by thee local laws to the highest extent possible.
They were evil, yes. That does not mean that all who resist Russian occupation of Chechenya are evil. Obviously it is in the Russian interests to paint them all of one stripe, but there are clear distinctions. The power vacuum caused by four years of chaos means that there is no unfiied monolith of Chechen resistance but a number of indpendent groups working to similar but not identical goals.
The earliest polls all showed that the Chechens were anti-Russian not Pro-Islamic theocracy. Beslan is an attempt by the fanatics to redefine the separatist agenda from a free Chechenya to a Islamic Chechen-Ingushetia federation, to make their cause the strongest faace of Chechen nationalism.
Russia has serious reasons to fear an independent Chechenya. Chechenya has serious reasons to fear Russian stewardship. And we all have reason to guard against the likes of the Beslan killers. They're scum no matter what ideology they profess.
There's just so much going on in the world today............
There are a couple of separate issues here that interest me.
I am interested in Russia having a government strong enough to control their extensive nuclear, biological, and chemical weapon stockpiles. The previous post-gorbachev government has apparently not been successful in this. I think that in terms of the interests of the United States, it is paramount that no more of the former soviet NBC stockpiles disappear. If it takes an autocratic regime to see to this, then that is what it takes.
In human terms I assume it is unfortunate for russians in general in terms of political freedom. Unlike venezuela, where I have at least experience in other S/C American countries to let me compare what is going on there and have some basis for judgement, I really have no idea how much things have changed in russia. All I know is what our media tells me, which is undoubtably fed through some very thick colored glass. If soviet weapons sold on the black market are eventually used against russian cities, though, then the eventual price of a weak, non-centralized political system may be much higher than the media pundits appreciate. Insomuch as the US has vested interests in the outcome (and it certainly does,), I don't see how a strong Russian regime is not in our stragetic interests. It may very well be against american economic interests, however.
There are persistent rumors of russian weapons, plutonium, etc., being found in the black market. I want whatever kind of government in moscow it takes to stop that, once and for all. If it takes secret police to scare the devil out of the people in a position to sell those materials, then that is what it takes. Given the money that can (and presumably is) being offered to the caretakers of those facilities, that may be what it takes to dissuade them. If one of our cities is nuked, it is certainly possible that it will turn out to be russian-processed plutonium that was used in the bomb.
"Did you catch the Nightline coverage of this story two nights ago? They summed this up as no big deal."
This is like using Pravda as a source for determining the signifigance of political events in the US.
You are being sarcastic when referring to Nightline as a basis for making informed decisions about anything they report, aren't you?
What happened in Belsan was terror, plain and simple. I don't recall stories of Russian soldiers capturing a school, raping girls and murdering people with the help of AQ.
Luis, can you give sources for the numbers you state?
"If one of our cities is nuked, it is certainly possible that it will turn out to be russian-processed plutonium that was used in the bomb."
I would like to amend this statement. This is probably MUCH less true than it was even 2 years ago, though if one of the rumored 'suitcase' (crate-sized, I understand) nukes were involved it would be russian. In any event, apparently a LOT of uranium/plutonium from the former soviet union has found its way on the market.
As did Japan and Italy.
"As far as I know, Russia never held hostage an entire school full of children and shot those who fled in the back."
They've killed 25% of the population of Chechnya, what do you say about that?
"I am aware of Chchneyan executions of Russian soldiers on video, usually by beheading."
So have Iraqis, are they all to blame?
However, the point being discussed here is the disturbing move by Putin to roll back democracy in Russia, something that disturbs the Bush administration.
Who do you agree with on that issue?
The US State Department among others.
There is of course the Russian figures which places the number of civilian deaths much lower...on course.
BTW...where do you see me condoning, approving, or justifying the terrorist's actions in Beslan.?
As a matter of fact, the issue being discussed on this thread is the turning back of democracy in Russia by Putin...something criticized by the Bush administration.
Great post.
I agree that democracy should reign. But to say that Russia has killed 40,000 children in Chechneya, etc., you are giving a backhanded justification for what the Chechens did.
You know Will, I truly detest liars, so I'll do this.
You post a link to a single statement by me saying that I think the attack was justified, and I will leave this forum forever.
You fail to do so, you leave this forum forever.
Do we have a deal?
That's what you are interpreting, I'm just posting the numbers.
In reality, Russia is being given a pass on their attrocities because of the massacre at Beslan.
The massacre at Beslan was horrible, and unjustifiable...so have Russia's actions in Chechnya.
If you want to know the truth, just go looking for it.
One was head of the USSR and the other ran Russia.
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