Mikhail Gorbachev and Boris Yeltsin Speak out Against Putin’s Reforms

mosnews.com ^ | 9/16/2004 | Staff

[Miss Marple]

I don't know. For one thing, the reports are coming from sources that are anti-Bush, like Reuters. The same sources are anti-Putin.

I don't know. However, a great deal of the killing in Chechneya was done before Putin came to power.

I defer to the President in this. As Arne Fufkin once said, I gave him my marker.

I do not think siding with the Chechneyans is correct, since they have been guilty of a lot of atrocities. So have the Russians.

I will defer to the President, since I don't have the intel to make a clear decision. I suggest you take the same position. Lots of stuff is reported to sway world opinion one way or the other. I prefer to wait and see.

[FreeReign]

As far as I know, Russia never held hostage an entire school full of children and shot those who fleed in the back. I am aware of Chchneyan executions of Russian soldiers on video, usually by beheading.

Remarks by Ilyas Akhmadov, Foreign Minister of Chechnny, National Press Club, March 23, 2001:Link

[Excerpt]...Fortunately, the laudable Russian NGO Memorial was able to document the gravesite with video and photographs. Revealed in Moscow, these photos clearly showed that many of the bodies had been decomposing for under two months, that among them were women and children, that many of them had their hands and feet bound behind their backs, and that almost all of them had been killed by a single bullet through the head fired at close range. You can find these photographs on the Memorial website.

...lots of bad sides out there.

[FreeReign]

I will not condone, approve, or justify what the bastards did in Belsan- regardless of what Russia has allegedly done in Chechneya. By your argument, you've justified what terrorists do as well.

Maybe it's here and I can't find it. Where did Luis justify Beslan?

[exodus]

rintense -- "So are you taking the Chechen's side here?"
Luis Gonzalez -- There have been 200,000 civilian deaths in Chechnya, and yes...I am taking the Chechen's side on this.
I didn't say that I am either taking the side of the Chechen terrorists, nor that I am condoning the attacks on Beslan.
The fact remains that there have been as many as 200,000 civilian deaths in Chechnya as a result of Russia, and approximately 40,000 children are among the dead, and if sides have to be taken on that, I will take the side who are suffering such staggering losses at the hands of the Russian Army ..."
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I hope what I've read was an exaggeration; I read that Chechnya had 2 million citizens when Russia first invaded, and now that number is closer to 800 thousand.

That means 1 million 200 thousand dead, more than half of the population, and that doesn't count the wounded Chechnyans.

[Carsigliere]

Didn't Yeltsin call in Butch rhino to sove his problems a few years back.

[exodus]

To: Luis Gonzalez
Luis, Chechneya sided with the Nazis in WWII ..." **********************************

Miss Marple, the Russians also sided with the Nazis in WWII.

[exodus]

To: Luis Gonzalez
"... I am interested in Russia having a government strong enough to control their extensive nuclear, biological, and chemical weapon stockpiles. The previous post-gorbachev government has apparently not been successful in this. I think that in terms of the interests of the United States, it is paramount that no more of the former soviet NBC stockpiles disappear. If it takes an autocratic regime to see to this, then that is what it takes ..."
# 29 by WoofDog123
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WoofDog123, the Soviet Union was a strong autocratic regime.

Do you think the United States would be safer if the Soviet Union hadn't fallen?

[Miss Marple]

Yes. The Chechnyans, however, never came over to our side.

The whole thing is very difficult. I am not supporting the Russians as the people with clean hands; BUT the Chechneyans are guilty themselves.

I trust the President to choose the side that helps our country. Other than that, I have no opinion one way or the other.

[WoofDog123]

"WoofDog123, the Soviet Union was a strong autocratic regime.
Do you think the United States would be safer if the Soviet Union hadn't fallen?"

This is a complex question. Your question leaves out some important qualifiers which would impact my answer (such as WHICH soviet government, gorbachev or the coup that briefly deposed him), but in general, I would say 'possibly.' Despite some VERY close calls (cuba was the closest, I think), we and the soviets managed to not destroy each other. Proxy wars took place, geopolitical chess, and I have read that the russians put nukes in some US cities. Nonetheless, for 40+ years of soviet nukes, even when run by one of the biggest mass-murderering psychopaths in history, the US was not ever directly at war with the USSR. And importantly, nothing I have read implies the USSR sold nukes, nuclear material or any biological stuff on the international market. My understanding is that this took place upon and after the dissolution of the USSR and/or whatever controls were in place at that time.

One of the first risk factors against my answer is if (BIG if) a successful coup against gorbachev had decided to refuse to leave/take any action in any of the warsaw pact countries whose governments had fallen, and who, for the most part, had asked soviet troops to leave.

The current enemy is MUCH less rational, does not subscribe to MAD, and presumably does have nukes, or components. If they don't, one of their sponsor states does or might soon. I assume the main reason there has not been a clear terrorist attack since 2001 in the US is because at some level it has been noticed that when the US was hit, 2 islamic or arab governments fell, and 2 countries were occupied, and still are.

What are your thoughts on this? Do you think the odds of a catastrophic attack against one or more US cities is higher or lower than it was, say, in 1990? I think it is certainly higher.

[Will_Zurmacht]

sorry it took so long to get back, I was watching Kerry debate himself while his supporters make little girls cry....

anyhow i distinctly remember you on the Belsan attack threads going off about "what about what the russians did, what about all the Chechen kids...yada yada yada."

Irrelevant. Who cares about what someone else did? Honestly?

Using your logic, I should be allowed to go kill some English kids because some time ago they were kicking my ancestors butts...(Yeah, but what about when so and so did such and such...it's because of this that I am justified in shooting a little girl..) Gimme a break.

I have no problem with people fighting for their rights, real or percieved. I could even cutsome slack for the palestinians if they would fight the IDF instead of school busses. Its a matter of principle with me. But people who consider blowing up a school or shooting up a birthday party don't really impress me as heroes. Color me a hopeless romantic.

If you gotta beef, handle it with those responsible, if the big bad Chechens really want to go toe to toe with the Russki's, go for it. (They already have and dang near won, but I digress.)But leave kids out of it. That goes for everybody involved. The Russians, The Chechens, The thick-legged Sweedish Lutherans...everybody.

you're just upset your twisted logic doesn't cut it here.

shooting kids in the back is never excused by a past injustice.

Yes the russian have been bastards, so have we, the brits the germans, the Japs, even the Commanchee, and don't get me started on the Swiss cheese makers....viscious bastards.

But no matter how bad the other guy has been, you can't justify becoming him.

I don't care how upset this makes you, but there is no reason to shoot kids. period.

and I won't be leaving, this place is to fun. And I'm sure you have a sweet and cuddly side too.........;)

have a good one,

[exodus]

What are your thoughts on this? Do you think the odds of a catastrophic attack against one or more US cities is higher or lower than it was, say, in 1990? I think it is certainly higher.
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Our borders are wide open, and security at our airports is no better than it was in 1991, despite the "danger" from terrorists.

I'd say that there is a much higher chance of a 9-11 style attack today than there was in 1990.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"Using your logic, I should be allowed to go kill some English kids because some time ago they were kicking my ancestors butts."

This is not "some time ago", and these are not anyone's ancestors...this is today.

There are distinct and separate issues here.

• There are Chechens fighting the Russian occupation.
• There are Muslim extremists trying to blow this up into a religious fight
• There are Russians troops committing atrocities since 1999
• There are Russian mercenaries selling killing and plundering villages and selling arms to the rebels because the Russian government has not paid them what they were told they were going to get paid.

And I am going to tell you that there are a whole lot of truly naive people in this forum who are willing to swallow the Kremlin "official story", hook, line, and sinker, when they would have never believed one thing Putin said as the head of the Soviet KGB.

That's truly amazing to me...somehow, people in here are convinced that the Wicked Witch somehow became Snow White overnight.

YOU have bought everything that the Russian government has told you...like in the old USSR days, they are controlling every bit of information that came out of Beslan; you know what they want you to know.

I believe that there is a real possibility of this massacre being staged by the communist Old Guard, and if you don't want to believe that a government would murder its own children, then you forgot Waco, and you forgot exactly what communism can do.

One last thing...Reichstag fire.

Get it?

[Luis Gonzalez]

Post #51 is truly disgusting, and I am willing to bet the poster is a re-thread.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"But no matter how bad the other guy has been, you can't justify becoming him."

I'll ask you again...when did I?

Oh, forgive me...I see that you've admitted to lying.

[Luis Gonzalez]

But I AM siding with Bush on this.

He's being highly critical of the way Putin has not only handled the Chechnya situation, but of the roll back of democracy that he announced Monday while most FReepers followed the CBS forgery story.

[MarMema]

Not a rollback, but a taking of personal responsibility for corruption which led to terrible things in Beslan.

Now you just have to make the leap to trust him. He does not want more children hurt and there is one governor who needs to pay for looking the other way. Meantime this is the only way to be sure that it doesn't happen again. There are too many pro-chechen collaborators sneaking into prominent political positions. Putin is going to make sure none are allowed to recreate Beslan.

[MarMema]

He's being highly critical of the way Putin has not only handled the Chechnya situation, but of the roll back of democracy

Please link to this. Thanks.

[MarMema]

You should give it up. Most freepers know about the chechens and their brutality. Sympathy for them is not very high here, and after Beslan, it is probably at an all time low.

[Fiddlstix]

BTTT