Mikhail Gorbachev and Boris Yeltsin Speak out Against Putin’s Reforms

an excellent argument!

In a perfect world, I suppose I should say that I would without a doubt prevent them from taking revenge on innocents. I would advise them to hold it for their true tormentors and not lash out in a haphazard way. A mob scene attacking a single farmer doesn't really do their suffering justice. Hunt down those responsible, I'm not a big fan of communal punishment, but I'm old fashioned that way........

But that is a perfect world scenario, to be honest, if I were a grunt who encounterd such a scene, freed Jews kicking the hell out of an innocent German farmer type ....I might be tempted to look away for a while and let him get a nice @ss kicking. No death, no kids, but a good old fashioned @ss kicking.

A curious dilema.....Assuming the people being attacked are "innocent" Germans ( how one defines this is debatable), there is no justification for killing them. The farmer didn't give the order, or follow the order, or fire the trigger.

Now, if the freed Jews stumbled onto a Waffen-SS officer, that's different....I really don't know how I would respond. I imagine I should behave in an orderly fashion, maintain order, etc.....but really who can blame them?

Thats essentially how I am with Chechnyans, Palestinians, etc. IF they want to fight, fight the enemy, not the enemy's kids. I'd have much more respect for "terrorist" who can control themselves, fight military units, not harm the civillians, etc.

BBC NEWS

"After the first Chechen war ended in 1996, the province descended into lawlessness, and kidnappings became rife as rebel warlords fell out with Chechen President Aslan Maskhadov.

Victims included British aid workers Jon James and Camilla Carr, who were freed in September 1998 after a year in captivity, and four engineers who were kidnapped but later found beheaded. Herbert Gregg, an American missionary held hostage for seven months and released in July 1999, said much of his treatment was good - despite the fact that the rebels videoed themselves cutting one of his fingers off."

A week later, several pro-Chechen gunmen seized about 120 tourists at a luxury Istanbul hotel in protest against the war.

In July 2001, up to 30 people were held in searing heat on a bus in southern Russia by a Chechen man demanding the release of five Chechens who had been captured in a previous hijacking.

And in May 2002, a lone gunman held about 10 people hostage - again at an Istanbul hotel. They were all released unharmed.

There are plenty of interesting reports regarding the Soviet style occupation of Chechnya and the brutality metered out by Putin's policy.

Of course those reports come from organizations such as Amnesty International, the United Nations and other such groups...which will automatically disqualified them with the Putin crowd.

I do give Putin credit though...whenever international human rights observers issued reports detailing the brutality of his troops he simply expelled the observers...what abuses?

an independent Chechnya is dead and the slaughter will go on

The chechens were given independence twice, and each time they blew it.

The next thing you have to do, is understand that there is a difference between Chechen separatists, and Chechen terrorists.

There are no excuses for terrosists killing kids...but there are reasons.

Bad reasons, wrong reasons...but there are reasons.

I think he wants to go back to the "good old days".

I hope I'm wrong, but this has set alarm bells going off in my head.

FYI The Sept. issue of the American Spectator has a couple of pieces about Putin, I hope to get to them at work tomorrow.

1990: Russia shows interest in Azerbaijan oil and the pipeline in Chechnya.

1991: The fall of the Soviet Union allows Georgia, Latvia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Tajikstan and Chechnya to declare independence. Russia refuses to allow Chechnya independence.

1992: Chechnya separated from fellow Muslim province Ingushetia.

1994 November: Chechnya’s president Dadaev declares independence. Russia’s attack to keep Chechnya with 40,000 troops coincides with Boris Yeltsin’s reelection.

1994 December: Yeltsin decides to invade Chechnya again after embarrassing defeat in November.

1995: Peace treaty signed but sporadic fighting continued.

1996: Dudaev killed. Cease-fire ended fighting.

1997: Peace treaty signed.

1999 August: Radical Muslims stage uprisings in neighboring Dagestan. September

1999: Russia declares full scale war in Chechnya.

1999 November: In effort to surround capitol Grozny, Russian captures neighboring cities.

2000 February: Russia claims it captured Grozny, while Chechen forces flee to Southwest portion of country.

2000 June: Russia appoints Islamic cleric Ashmed Kadyrov to head the separatist state. Kadyrov supported Russian invasion and disliked former Chechen president Maskhadov. Later Russia removes 3/4 of forces from Chechnya.

LA Times article?

La Times is ok for link and excerpt, which is what I did, and actually the link is not direct.

updated list

Russia: Nine Civilians Extrajudicially Executed in Chechnya Amid Evidence of New Atrocities, U.N. Human Rights Commission Must Take Action

(Moscow, April 13, 2004)—The bodies of nine men bearing the marks of extrajudicial execution were found in Chechnya on Friday, Human Rights Watch said today. Eight of the men had been forcibly disappeared two weeks ago after armed men, presumed to be Russian forces, took them from their homes. The bodies were found a week before the U.N. Commission on Human Rights is to vote on a resolution calling on Russia to address abuses in Chechnya.

“This latest incident of forced disappearances and extrajudicial executions should serve as a wake-up call to those who believe that things have improved in Chechnya,” said Rachel Denber, acting executive director of Human Rights Watch’s Europe and Central Asia Division. “The U.N. Human Rights Commission can help break this ongoing cycle of abuse and impunity by adopting the resolution introduced last week.”

About ten days ago, Human Rights Watch researchers spoke with villagers from Duba-Yurt in southern Chechnya while they were still searching for their “disappeared” relatives. They told Human Rights Watch that at around 2 a.m. on March 27, eight military vehicles bearing smudged number plates entered the village. Among the vehicles were armored personnel carriers, used exclusively by Russian forces.

A large group of masked men in camouflage uniforms, who had arrived in these vehicles, raided 19 houses in Duba-Yurt and detained 11 men between the ages of 28 and 44. Several witnesses independently told Human Rights Watch that the armed men—who spoke Russian without a Chechen accent—burst into the houses, forced the families to the floor at gunpoint, and took the men away without checking their documents or giving them a chance to dress.

The armed men released three of the detainees near the village the same night, but the remaining eight subsequently “disappeared.” Among them were Bai-Ali Elmurzaev (b.1968), Idris Elmurzaev (b. 1971), Sharip Elmurzaev (b.1974), Apti Murtazov (b.1964), Lechi Shoipov (b.1960), Zelimkhan Osmaev (b.1975), Khusim Khadzhimuradov (b.1975), and Isa Khadzhimuradov (b. 1965). The men’s relatives appealed to the procuracy—a government agency responsible both for criminal investigation and prosecution—and other authorities for information on their whereabouts, but received no response. Unofficial sources told relatives that the eight men were being held at the Russian military base in Khankala, yet the procuracy denied they were held there.

On Friday, local residents found nine bodies in a ravine outside Serzhen-Yurt, a village about 25 kilometers (15 miles) northeast of Duba-Yurt. The bodies bore gunshot wounds to their heads and torsos, as well as numerous signs of torture. Villagers who discovered the corpses said the men had been shot very recently. A medical doctor reportedly found that they were killed two days before. Eight of the bodies were identified as belonging to the men seized from Duba-Yurt. The ninth body belonged to another Duba-Yurt resident who had also been detained previously.

Chechen law enforcement authorities have allegedly launched an investigation, but to date have been unable to determine either the perpetrators or the place were the men had been held.

Also on Friday, a Russian court issued a ruling liquidating the operations in Russia of the Danish Refugee Counsel, a humanitarian organization that had been one of the major sources of humanitarian assistance to internally displaced persons since the renewal of the conflict in 1999. According to the court ruling, the Danish organization must cease its activity in Russia and close its offices in Stavropol, Nazran and Moscow. The liquidation hearing was initiated by the Ministry of Justice on the grounds that the organization had failed “to report the changes in the organization’s leadership and its legal address.”

These incidents took place just as the European Union on Thursday introduced a resolution on Chechnya at the U.N. Commission on Human Rights during its annual session in Geneva. The resolution expresses concern about continued human rights violations in Chechnya and calls on the Russian government to take urgent measures to address them. Russia responded by accusing the European Union of “putting the political process in the North Caucasus region in doubt” and “providing moral support for terrorists.”

“The U.N. Human Rights Commission should not allow Russia to dictate the terms of debate,” said Denber. “It is Russia’s failure to stop abuses and impunity for them that’s putting the political process in the region in doubt. Russia is taking for granted that the international community will just turn a blind eye to atrocities, and the Commission must dispel this perception.”

Human Rights Watch also urged the European Union to use the EU-Russia ministerial meeting, set for April 14, to raise the need for urgent measures to stop abuses in Chechnya.

During the Chechnya conflict, now in its fifth year, tens of thousands of civilians have fallen victim to abuses perpetrated by both Russian forces and Chechen rebels. These abuses include indiscriminate bombings and several massacres, extrajudicial executions, forced disappearances, rape, torture and arbitrary detentions. The overwhelming majority of these crimes remained uninvestigated and unpunished.

Nevertheless, Russian authorities claim that the situation in Chechnya has been “normalized.” Meanwhile, they have persistently restricted access to the region for journalists and for international humanitarian and human rights agencies, and have coerced thousands of the internally displaced to return back to Chechnya, with blatant disregard for their security.

In both 2000 and 2001, the U.N. Commission on Human Rights passed resolutions calling on the Russian government to stop abuses, establish a meaningful accountability process and invite the U.N. monitoring mechanisms to the region. Russia defied the resolutions and failed to comply with most of their recommendations.

“For too long, the world has been indulging Russia in its claims that the situation has been ‘normalized’,” said Denber. “It’s time for the world to send an unequivocal message that Russia must take real measures to stop the abuses in Chechnya.”

New evidence of torture, enforced disappearances and extrajudicial executions perpetrated over the last three months in Chechnya and neighboring Ingushetia was presented on April 8 in a joint statement by Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the Medical Foundation for the Care of Victims of Torture, and Memorial Human Rights Center. The four organizations called on the international community to take immediate action to address the situation, and urged the U.N. Commission on Human Rights to adopt a strong resolution on Chechnya and Ingushetia.

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Post # 109, Post # 113

That's a lot of evidence to go through, MarMema.

Thanks for taking the time to post it.

Russia: Conditions in Chechnya and Ingushetia Deteriorate UN Human Rights Commission Should Adopt Resolution on Chechnya

(Moscow, April 8, 2004)—The international community should take immediate action to address major human rights abuses continuing in Chechnya and neighboring Ingushetia, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the Medical Foundation for the Care of Victims of Torture and Memorial Human Rights Center said in a joint statement released in Moscow today. Human rights groups have recently documented a number of “disappearances,” summary executions, and attacks against civilians in both Chechnya and Ingushetia. The joint statement by the leading rights monitors in the Russian Federation marks the deadline for a draft resolution on Chechnya to be tabled at the U.N. Commission on Human Rights.

“The climate of abuse and impunity in Chechnya is now spilling over into Ingushetia and threatening stability there too,” said Anna Neistat, Moscow director for Human Rights Watch, “Russia’s assurances of “normalization” in the region should no longer obscure the vision of the international community. A resolution on Chechnya and Ingushetia will send the message that these continuing abuses must stop.”

In the last three months federal troops, security services, and pro-Moscow Chechen forces under the command of Akhmad Kadyrov, as well as Chechen rebels, have committed numerous human rights abuses, such as arbitrary detentions, torture, forced disappearances and summary executions in various parts of Chechnya. Similar violations are on the increase in Ingushetia. As in Chechnya, the perpetrators of these abuses go unpunished.

Despite continuing violence in Chechnya, the federal and Chechen authorities continue closing tent camps for the internally displaced persons in Ingushetia and pressuring them to return to Chechnya. Accommodation and humanitarian assistance provided to Ingushetia returnees in Chechnya does not meet international standards.

“The government is using a mixed policy of threats and incentives to get the displaced persons to return, with blatant disregard for their well-founded fears about security,” said Neistat.

The joint statement contains a summary of the latest research findings from Human Rights Watch and other organizations documenting human rights abuses in Chechnya and Ingushetia.

You left out the invasions into southern Russia, like Buddenovsk.

I have a low opinion of Gorbachev and of Yeltsin - What does Gorbachev know of democracy? and as for Yeltsin: Yeltsin Speaks Out In Behalf Of Putin so some American reporter must have got the wrong translation? Dan Rather?

So Luis - why do you care about the opinions of a Soviet and a drunkard?

PS: The system under which Putin is moving Russia is as the French and English models. I will take republican order over democratic mob rule every time.

"... A week later, several pro-Chechen gunmen seized about 120 tourists at a luxury Istanbul hotel in protest against the war. In July 2001, up to 30 people were held in searing heat on a bus in southern Russia by a Chechen man demanding the release of five Chechens who had been captured in a previous hijacking. And in May 2002, a lone gunman held about 10 people hostage ..."
**********************************

It seems I've missed a lot of Chechnyan action. Thanks, MarMema.

Thank you MarMema. Lois Gonzales, CWOJackson, and FreeReign may be busy installing themselves as human shields in Grozny's daycare centers, but *I* am going to sit back and watch the fireworks as Putin flattens Chechnya.

Russian Federation/Chechnya Briefing to the 60th Session of the UN Commission on Human Rights

January 2004

Objective

The Commission on Human Rights should adopt a strong resolution on the situation in Chechnya, condemning ongoing violations of human rights and international humanitarian law by both parties to the conflict; urging the Russian authorities to establish a genuine accountability process for these abuses; calling on Russia to desist from coerced returns of internally displaced persons and to ensure their well-being; calling on Russia to invite key U.N. thematic mechanisms, in particular the Special Rapporteurs on torture and on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions; and urging Russia to agree to a new Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) mandate for Chechnya.

Background

The October 2003 presidential elections in Chechnya did not change dynamics in the republic. Despite government claims of normalization, the situation there continued to be very tense.

Russian forces round up thousands of men in raids, loot homes, physically abuse villagers, and frequently commit extrajudicial executions. Those detained face beatings and other forms of torture, aimed at coercing confessions or information about Chechen forces. Federal forces routinely extort money from detainees’ relatives as a condition for release.

“Disappearances” remain a hallmark of the conflict, and their frequency rose sharply in early 2003. According to statements by pro-Moscow Chechen officials, in the first half of 2003 an average of two people went missing every day, many of them after being detained by Russian forces. The Russian human rights group Memorial documented 294 “disappearances” between January and November 2003, including forty-seven people whose corpses were later discovered in unmarked graves or dumped by the roadside. The group estimates that the real number of “disappearances” was three or four times higher.

Starting in spring 2003, the conflict increasingly spilled over into other regions of Russia. Human Rights Watch research in Ingushetia in July found that Russian forces regularly conducted military operations there, targeting both Chechen internally displaced persons but also the local Ingush population. A series of suicide bombings in the North Caucasus and Moscow, often carried out by Chechen women, reinforced fears of a spreading conflict.

Harassment of applicants to the European Court of Human Rights emerged as a new and worrisome trend. After having “disappeared” an applicant in June 2002, Russian forces extrajudicially executed another applicant and her family in May 2003. Also, nongovernmental groups that represent Chechen victims of human rights abuses before the Court have documented threats against other applicants or their families in at least seven other cases.

IDP crisis. Russian authorities have continued to put undue pressure on displaced persons to return to Chechnya, where they remain at risk. In 2003, they closed two more camps for internally displaced persons in Ingushetia. Although eventually some camp dwellers were allowed to resettle in Ingushetia, months of carrot-and-stick tactics had already resulted in the return of many to Chechnya. Following a September 2003 visit to the region, the U.N. Representative of the Secretary General for Internally Displaced Persons stated that “IDPs in camps in Ingushetia were acutely apprehensive that the camps might be closed and that they might be forced to return to a situation in Chechnya which they regarded to be unsafe…” He also noted that persons who had returned to Chechnya due to incentives asserted that “they had not found much of what they had been promised including compensation and adequate humanitarian assistance and that they remained seriously concerned about the security situation and their own safety.”

Abuses by Chechen fighters. Chechen rebels were responsible for several suicide bombings in and around Chechnya that caused major loss of civilian life. In December 2002 and May 2003, suicide bombers destroyed administrative buildings in Grozny and Znamenskoe. In June, a suicide bomber drove a truck into a military hospital in Mozdok. Chechen rebel groups may also have been responsible for a series of other suicide bombings in Chechnya and other parts of Russia. Rebel fighters also continued their assassination campaign against civil servants and others who cooperated with the Moscow-appointed administration in Chechnya.

Accountability. Russia continued to resist establishing any meaningful accountability process for crimes committed by its forces. Although the procuracy opened hundreds of criminal investigations into abuses by Russian troops, in most cases officials failed to conduct even the most basic investigative steps (including questioning eyewitnesses and relatives). As a result, most investigations remained unsolved and almost none were sent to the courts.

In one significant positive development, after three years of convoluted legal battles, Yuri Budanov, the only high-ranking officer tried for abuses related to the Chechnya conflict, was found guilty of murdering a young Chechen woman and sentenced to ten years’ imprisonment. Budanov’s conviction demonstrates that the Russian authorities are capable of bringing to justice those responsible for abuse provided the political will is there.

Access. In contrast to 2002, for most of the year no international monitors worked in the region. The OSCE Assistance Group’s mandate expired in late 2002 and Russia has since refused to agree to a mandate that contains a human rights component. The Council of Europe’s experts were withdrawn from Chechnya in early 2003, after a bomb attack on their convoy, and the volatile security situation since has not allowed them to return. In the four years of the conflict, Russia has not complied with U.N. resolutions calling for deployment of U.N. thematic mechanisms, with the exception of the Representatives of the Secretary-General on children in armed conflict and internally displaced persons. Among those who have been seeking access for years are the Special Rapporteurs on torture and on extrajudicial, summary, and arbitrary executions. While agreeing to a visit by the Special Rapporteur on violence against women, Russian authorities have canceled scheduled missions on a number of occasions, citing security conditions.

The Russian military periodically prevents access by journalists and human rights activists to the remaining tent camps in Ingushetia.

Recommendations

The Commission on Human Rights should: * Condemn ongoing violations of human rights and humanitarian law by both parties to the conflict. The resolution should call on the Russian authorities to immediately put an end to arbitrary detention and to observe international and Russian legal standards; to end the use of torture and ill-treatment; to put an end to the pattern of enforced disappearances; to end extrajudicial executions; and to stop harassing and threatening applicants to the European Court of Human Rights. It should call on Chechen rebel leaders to cease all attacks on civilians, including retaliatory attacks on Chechen civilians who cooperate with the Russian authorities.

* Insist on accountability. The resolution should call on the Russian authorities to ensure meaningful investigations into all reported crimes by Russian troops against civilians in Chechnya or Ingushetia, and for the prosecution of the perpetrators; it should call on the Russian authorities to publish a detailed list of all current and past investigations into such abuses and indicate their current status; it should renew its call for a national commission of inquiry to document abuses by both sides to the conflict; and make clear that Russian authorities’ continued failure to make progress on accountability will result in the establishment of an international commission of inquiry to document and produce an official record of abuses.

* Call on Russia to desist from coerced returns of internally displaced persons and to ensure their well-being. The resolution should strongly condemn Russia’s efforts to force internally displaced persons to return to Chechnya. It should call on the Russian authorities to stop moving any displaced persons to parts of the conflict zone where their safety and security cannot be guaranteed and where international humanitarian agencies do not have free and safe access.

* Call on Russia to invite key U.N. thematic mechanisms, particularlythe Special Rapporteur on torture, the Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, and the Special Rapporteur on violence against women. Russia should also renew its invitation to the High Commissioner for Human Rights to visit the region and report to the Commission on the findings.

* Call for renewal of the OSCE Assistance Group’s mandate and cooperation with the Council of Europe. The resolution should call on the Russian government to agree to the renewal of the Assistance Group’s mandate that expired on December 31, 2002, which should include a human rights component. It should also call on the authorities to cooperate with the Council of Europe.

Bump for the morning.
Time for this buck-a-roo to head for the old buckhouse.

"PS: The system under which Putin is moving Russia is as the French and English models."

LOL...not at all, just the Soviet model.

You have a good evening. There is plenty of good reading out there...it's been documented for 10 years of Putin's abuses...I've only touched on those from this year before the "terrorist" attacks.

Apparently, Ronald Reagan cared about Gorbachev's opinion, and Gorbachev cared about Reagan's.

"PS: The system under which Putin is moving Russia is as the French and English models."

Yeah...right.

None so blind as they who will not see.

By the way...Bush spoke out against Putin's anti-democracy moves today.

I guess now you'll start calling Bush a drunk as well?