Do I have to draw you a picture? Apparently, I do:
If this is what you consider "religious people", you're in the wrong religion.
Posted on 09/12/2004 3:07:13 AM PDT by The Bandit
Televangelist Paul Crouch, founder of the world's largest Christian broadcasting network, has waged a fierce legal battle to prevent a former employee from publicizing allegations that he and Crouch had a sexual encounter eight years ago.
Crouch, 70, is the president of Trinity Broadcasting Network, based in Orange County, whose Christian programming reaches millions of viewers around the world via satellite, cable and broadcast stations.
The source of the allegations against him is Enoch Lonnie Ford, who met Crouch at a TBN-affiliated drug treatment center in 1991 and later went to work for the ministry.
After Ford threatened to sue TBN in 1998, claiming that he had been unjustly fired, Crouch reached a $425,000 settlement with him. In return, Ford agreed, among other things, not to discuss his claim about a sexual encounter with the TV preacher.
(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...
Do I have to draw you a picture? Apparently, I do:
If this is what you consider "religious people", you're in the wrong religion.
The guy on the left looks like Jonas Nightengale and the thing on his shoulder looks like a relic from the Biggest Whorehouse in Texas.
What is the difference in heart attitude between how you claim Godfollow is judging and how you are judging Godfollow? Scriptural foundations for your answer here and your comment would be very helpful.
First of all I never claimed to know Godfollow's "heart attitude".
You are the one framing this as a discussion about a person's "heart attitude", not me.
I simply addressed what he posted.
Secondly, the difference between my "judging" and Godfollow's "judging" is simple;
Godfollow judged what Paul and Jan's reward in Heaven would be.
I made no such judgment on Godfollow.
I simply judged what Godfollow posted as wrong and unscriptural.
I will leave Godfollow's "reward" for this, up to God.
Ok. So you have the right to judge who are God's people based on their appearance?
No need. Your contempt for the #1 Christian ministry in the world, responsible for God's Word getting out to more people around the world than any other ministry in history is quite evident.
More Evangelists and Christian teachers are broadcast from TBN and reach a larger audience than any other.
I don't care how "plastic" Paul and Jan might look, they have accomplished a great work for the Lord.
Maybe you should look past your shallow superficial judgments of others.
Right on...
CSN radio is gettng on more and more staions...
Well, that plus the $6 million Newport mansion - sure. People with such obviously-bad, retina-searing, scary taste couldn't have been sent by a loving God. I mean, geeeeeezzz.
Paul should have known better than to have an antichrist like Yassar Arafat on TBN that day. He probably picked up some of Animalfat's homosexual demons.
You said: First of all I never claimed to know Godfollow's "heart attitude".You are the one framing this as a discussion about a person's "heart attitude", not me.
That is not what I said, and if it came out that way, let me clear it up. I had said: 1. You have "judged" Godfollow by saying Your misapplication of the scriptures in order to judge those you personally disapprove of is just astounding. What is the difference in heart attitude between how you claim Godfollow is judging and how you are judging Godfollow? Scriptural foundations for your answer here and your comment would be very helpful.
First, when you quoted me, why did you leave off the part about the scriptural foundation for your answer? Was that on oversight on your part, or intentional?
Then, if you notice, I did not intend to say that you were judging Godfollow's heart or that you were making a statement about his heart attitude. My question was, and still remains - is what is the difference between you condemming/judging/commenting on Godfollow's words or actions and his commenting on the Crouch's? Godfollow pointed out the lesson Jesus was teaching us about the poor widow's coins and the rich man's in what the Crouch's gave and what they have, but yet you accused Godfollow of misapplying God's Word and did it in an emotional way. Not only that, but you did not show why you believe he is misapplying scripture. So, how is what you did and what Godfollow did any different in your hearts? Why is it that Godfollow is wrong to say something about someone's actions but not yours when at least Godfollow gave some scriptural support?
And why did you ignore my second question: 2. You say that Godfollow misapplies the scripture yet you give no explanation of that. Saying that doesn't mean it is true. Can you please show exactly how you think he is misapplying the scripture?
That is not what I said, and if it came out that way, let me clear it up. I had said: 1. You have "judged" Godfollow by saying Your misapplication of the scriptures in order to judge those you personally disapprove of is just astounding. What is the difference in heart attitude between how you claim Godfollow is judging and how you are judging Godfollow? Scriptural foundations for your answer here and your comment would be very helpful.
Is this a joke?
First you tell me that you are NOT making this a discussion about a person's "heart attitude".
THEN you repeat the SAME question asking me to comment on Godfollow's "heart attitude". Huh?
Or did you completely forget what the first part of your paragraph stated by the time you go to the end of it?
Jorge,
If I didn't know better, I would think you are trying to avoid the questions. ;)
Let me make it hopefully simpler - why do you find it wrong for someone like Godfollow to question Crouch's motives as not being Godly when you are doing the same to Godfollow? Or, why is it wrong for gf, but not for you?
And what exactly ARE the misapplications of the scripture that you claim gf is doing in such an astounding manner?
I am going to assume that if you don't answer this last question, asked here for at least the third time that you can't, or won't.
Are you trying to make me laugh on purpose or what?
I answered you question the FIRST time you asked it.
I don't know how many different ways I can say the same thing to you before you understand.
So I will REPOST my previous response to you. Read it again. Slower this time;
...the difference between my "judging" and Godfollow's "judging" is simple;
Godfollow judged what Paul and Jan's reward in Heaven would be.
I made no such judgment on Godfollow.
I simply judged what Godfollow posted as wrong and unscriptural.
I will leave Godfollow's "reward" for this, up to God.
"Neither do any of the snotty, judgmental snobs"
Bet she doesn't even see the irony in that statement.
1 cor 13:9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
Look like everyone here thinks they know everything about the Bible. If all Christians, even the "non-charismatics" who seem to always hate TBN and anything "extreme" would have their ways and doctrines tested they also would fail miserable.
Besides the only thing thats going to matter is what did you do with Jesus Christ? Followed Him? or Denied him?
It doesnt matter if you believed in pre mid or post Tribulation theories. Jesus knows the junk that is in all of us, but while we were yet Sinners Christ died for us.
The thing that blows me away, His love remains the same to whosoever will come. Even the Crouche's the Swaggerts, tiltons, the Charles Stanley's- whoever! The the thing about Amzing Grace. You cannot deny the least or the worst of Men and women. It really the "sick" he has come for.
Your looking at all the wrong place my friend. If you say Elijah in His day or Job, you'd say these are strange characters. You dont know their Heart. Only GOd knows them. Your judging them by their outward appearances and say that you dont like them or they look phony. Please look beyond the natural.
Dont hold your Billy Graham up that High also. Billy Graham is also a High ranking 33rd degrees Mason. So If you think He is clean figure out what lodge he was in and figure out how can a man preach Christ yet bow down at the altar of being hoodwinked and swearing an oath to "lucifer"?
You said:Are you trying to make me laugh on purpose or what? I answered you question the FIRST time you asked it.
I absolutely do not think God's Word and Truth is a joke. Quite the opposite - it is all.
But, again, you did NOT answer the question I put to you several times. You answered one that I already commented on, without response, but will comment again below. Here is the question that I plainly was referring to: And what exactly ARE the misapplications of the scripture that you claim gf is doing in such an astounding manner?
You repeatedly accuse someone of misapplying scripture and claim they are wrong, yet you have yet to state your view of whatever scriptural passage(s) you are talking about and HOW they are wrong. Where is your scriptural support, what part of God's word do you claim has been twisted? That has been the question I have put to you many times. It doesn't eternally matter what your opinion is, nor mine, but it DOES about the God's Truth. Your avoidance of it is beginning to have the same ring as Kerry and not having his records released. sigh.. The logical conclusion you are forcing us to is that either you don't have your a scriptural foundation to show them in error and so you are parroting others - which I have found is very common with followers of Hinn and his ilk, btw. And by scriptural foundation, I mean more than one verse, all taken in context.
Godfollow judged what Paul and Jan's reward in Heaven would be.
No.. GF was not judging - the Word of God has judged the Crouch's already. Hebrews 4:12 clearly says that scripture is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. By their defying His Word, it judges them - and also us when we do the same. GF simply showed how God has done that by using the passage about the widow giving 2 coins to the Temple (God's House) vs the rich who gave many more, but she gave all she had - to compare to what the Crouch's gave - which is but a drop in the bucket of what they have. Jesus Himself judged the latter, which is what the Crouch's did there. Besides that, elsewhere, Jesus said that even the pagans/heathen are kind at times. Just because someone gives money to a good cause, does not mean they are of God. If so, according to your logic, then everyone who has ever contributed to victims of natural disasters, etc are Godly people. That means that there are plenty of atheists, hindus, moslems, etc that will populate Heaven. :o
The good news is that they still can seek His forgiveness if they truly repent and seek His face for his righteousness and not theirs. :)
I simply judged what Godfollow posted as wrong and unscriptural.
Well... if you are calling someone (or their thoughts, deeds, etc) unscriptural and/or just calling them wrong without citing how or why when repeatedly asked to do so, just because you happen to disagree - then you ARE judging them. It is YOU who are judging them, not the Word of God. The scriptural definition of judging is to come to a decision about something, to judge, to pass sentence, to come to a decision in a private manner, to form a mental judgment or opinion, etc. And it appears that is exactly what you have done.
Everything thing we do or think is either in His will or not. That is why we are to take every thought captive to obey His will (2 Cor 10) because He will judge our every thought and work against His Word and will, no matter who we are (1 Peter 1). So if you say someone is wrong or misapplying scripture seemingly refusing to give a solid scriptural basis showing why you feel that way, then it is very likely that you are not really basing that on scripture and you have then come to your own conclusion of their actions. So... if you have judged GF, not based on God's Word, but on your own feelings, emotions, intellect, interpretations, etc, then you have indeed decided whether you feel GF will be rewarded or his works "burnt up". Calling someone wrong and accusing them of misapplying scripture is to decide whether or not they are in God's will and rightly dividing the truth. If your motive is to correct or rebuke them, then do that also in His will, using His Truth. If not, then the motive is not His.
The good news is that if we come to the throne of God, truly desiring to know what His Truth is, not trying to hold onto to what we want to believe, He will lovingly and abundantly give us wisdom and reveal Himself to us. My suggestion and prayer for you and all here is that we do just that - go to the Lord Jesus Christ with the heart attitude that it isn't about what we think is right, what sounds or feels good to us - but it is ALL about the Lord revealing His truth to our hearts - and revealing who we are so that whatever we have that stands in the way of knowing His Truth in this matter, we can desire Godly repentance which will result in His grace and peace in our hearts and an increase in being more like Him. And anyone who is not leading you directly to our need for the Lord (the Jesus of scripture) in every aspect of our life rather than through them or something else, then they are not acting in God's will then. (1 John 4). And their words and actions repeatedly over the years show the Crouch's to not be preaching the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
For you see, it isn't about who is right and who is wrong on this thread about TBN, but it is all about where we each stand in front of Him, and how much we truly desire to know Him more and more in our every word, thought and deed so that we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. And the more we do that, then the more of HIM people see in our lives and not ourselves. We are to be pointing each other to Him - and not to ourselves or other personalities. For we all are like grass that withers, but the Word of God is forever.
lupie;I absolutely do not think God's Word and Truth is a joke. Quite the opposite - it is all.
If you really think so highly of God's Word, then perhaps you might try reading it once in a while?
If you did you would understand my references to Biblical principles when it comes to the sort of mean-spirited judgments we've seen in this thread of Paul and Jan.
And NOWHERE did I EVER imply the Word of God or truth was laughable and you know it.
What's laughable is your parroting the same inane question over and over again no matter how many times I answer it.
But, again, you did NOT answer the question I put to you several times. You answered one that I already commented on,
This explains it all. You don't even remember what YOU'VE said from post to post, much less what I've said.
I suggest you go back and read your own questions and then read my responses to refresh your memory.
It's obvious you've completely lost track of the discussion.
Do I have to spell everything out for you? You talk about God's Word yet seem to know so little about what it says.
The idea that you don't know what's wrong with judging and condemning people as phoney Christians with phrases like;
"dufus extraordinar and his idiot Blond wife"
"plastic hair"
"made for TV gold paint sprayed furniture"
"glozzed on make up"
Jesus would "flog them"
Their reward in heaven with be "NIL"
Who exactly do you people think you are?
You want scripture? Try these out;
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
How about the scriptures that tell us not to judge others or we will be judged?
Have you ever read these scriptures?
If so WHY THEN are you defending the sort of mean-spirited, shallow judgments against Paul and Jan we see above?
Please don't lecture me on the Bible and your committment to God's Word when you defend this sort of rhetoric.
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