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To: Tailgunner Joe
Again, no matter how you twist the words or quotes of the Founders to prove your idea of the religious base of the country, "Law of God" and "Law of Scripture", "Maker" or "Creator" and similar wordings were not testaments to their fanatical belief in the modern day "Christian" god, nor in much of the modern day Christianity. As I said previously, they in no way show that either of these men were either enamoured of or inclined toward the zealoted extremism that seems typical of today's "charismatic" Christians. "Christian religion" to them was equated with "moral" and "ethical" beliefs, not the perversions of Christ's words by todays televangelists and those who blindly follow them. (You know who you are.)

You can beat your drum of proselytization all you want and parrot all your Probe Ministries, or 700 Club or American Family propaganda to try to prove what wasn't really there, but it will never change the fact that "Christianity" and "Jesus" were specifically excluded from the founding documents exactly for those reasons. The founders knew that "[but to] ...touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." (John Adams). And I really don't think he was describing that in a nice way.

Christian ideas were important in the founding of this republic and the framing of our American governmental institutions. And I believe they are equally important in the maintenance of that republic.

I agree completely with those words, I just disagree that the term "Christian" in today's society means the same thing as the Founders felt when they used it. In fact, I would suspect that John Adams probably had evangelical extremists and zealots such as yourself in mind when he wrote the above words about the hornets.

As fierce and rebellious as the Founding Fathers were, they were also schooled and genteel, ethical and moral, well aware of the niceties and courtesies that should be extended to other fellow human beings. I can pretty much guess that when they claim that the rights enumerated in the Constitution and Bill of Rights were "God given" and endowed by their "Creator", their concept of "God" and "Creator" was a far cry from your modern televangelist-wrought, sadistic and retributive "God".

"The faith you mention has doubtless its use in the world. I do not desire to see it diminished, nor would I desire to lessen it in any way; but I wish it were more productive of good works than I have generally seen it. I mean real good works, works of kindness, charity, mercy, and public spirit, not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing, and reading, performing church ceremonies, or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments, despised even by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity" --Benjamin Franklin, 1753, letter to Rev. George Whitefield

Why is it when I see droves of people in congregations with eyes closed, tears running down their cheeks and hands waving above their heads as some preening, blow dried, fire and brimstone spewing evangelist spouts extremist exhortations and biblical admonitions to them, another image of multitudes of arms raised high in the air in acknowledgment of his "Vaterland Uber Alles" comes to mind? I know, unfair... it's just what jumps into my head when I see them. Sorry. "Mindless Automatons" is a phrase that usually accompanies it.

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." --Benjamin Franklin

Year ago, I drove cab for some time as a living. One of the experiences that helped shape some of my thoughts on formal religions was when I was dispatched- regularly- to different churches to pick up a churchgoer and take them home. I spent some time sitting, waiting for the "fare" and watching the congregants come out of the churches, get into their cars and damn near run over anybody that got in their way. In fact, I have seen more courtesy in shopping center parking lots by the general public, than from church people who have just been "saved" and obviously have no need to extend any courtesy or good to their fellow man. I have seen nothing that has much changed what I learned from those times, long ago.

"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." --Thomas Paine

"...to argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine, "The Crisis"

Since I see no reason to give out medicine for the dead, or to subject myself to swarms of hornets, I am out of here also...

120 posted on 08/30/2004 6:13:50 PM PDT by hadit2here ("The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason." --Benjamin Franklin)
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To: hadit2here
The Founders were Christians, this is a Christian Nation which has a form of government based on and rooted in Christianity.

I would suspect that John Adams probably had evangelical extremists and zealots such as yourself in mind

The bigoted hatred for particular denominations of Christians spewing out of "philosopher kings" like you is why the Founders disdained atheists and those who would seek to use the apparatus of the government to restrict freedom of public religious worship.

I see no reason to give out medicine for the dead.

You are the one who is spiritually dead and your disgusting hatred of religious freedom has borne bitter fruit.

121 posted on 08/30/2004 6:38:18 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe (Mr. Paine has departed altogether from the principles of the Revolution - J.Q.Adams)
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