Stay Strong,
Fuzzy122
Stay Strong,
Fuzzy122
Really, What Christian ideas are those?
Where is the Bible does God recommend:
A republic/democracy type of government
Consent of the governed
Free Speech
Freedom of Religion
Free Press
Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness
Right to keep and bear arms
Trial by jury
No cruel and unusual punishments
No unreasonable searches and seizures
Due process of law
Book, chapter and verse on the following please
The only one I seem to be able to find is the Bible does endorse slavery which was present at our founding.
I've read a great deal of stuff from that time, and Christianity played a big role. Many sermons from that time were centered around the British tyranny, and how to deal with it. These sermons also involved lengthy discourses on the Rights on man, including the Right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Many talk about the duty of Free men to keep and bear arms in defense of Liberty.
And one of the most influential people in Lexington was pastor Jonas Clarke. His sermons made the case for Freedom and Liberty, and helped to form the ideological stand of the Patriots in Lexington.
Having said also, the stuff I've read from that time period demonstrates that 'religion' was different back then. It was more 'free will' based, and less controlling.
I don't think our Founders would recognize the 'church' of today, that teaches homosexuality is okay, guns are bad, and that we should submit to the gov't in all cases.
Must read later bump. :-)
Ping to self to read later.
There is a smell of revanchism in the air.
bump
It is interesting to see "religious values" so easily perverted into "my particular sect's beliefs and dictates". True, the founders of our country were men of values and beliefs, but they knew the dangers of inscribing any particular religion's brand of thinking into law- or the Constitution. They kept scrupulously- and successfully - from doing that. Remember also, having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed.
"The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine." --George Washington
Not a lot of wiggle room in that statement, and coming from probably one who had some very intimate first-hand knowledge on the subject of which he spoke.
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..." --John Adams, 1797, Treaty of Peace and Friendship
"Religion is a subject on which I have ever been most scrupulously reserved. I have considered it as a matter between every man and his Maker in which no other, and far less the public, had a right to intermeddle." -- Thomas Jefferson to Richard Rush, 1813
The Founding Fathers were certainly men of some "spiritual" conviction, as they were products of their time. Pouncing upon every instance of their use of "God" or "religion" and trumpeting it as "proof" that they were in favor of one religion or another - or none- is simply perverting the language of their times. These were men of morals and principles, and I dare say that those morals and priciples have been espoused by every "religion" that has ever been on the face of this earth- before Christ or after. Many "pagan" writings pre-dating Christianity could probably be shown that they supported "good" and "ethical" and "moral" behaviour by their practitioners if viewed in light of the language of the writing's time. Being "good" or "Godly" or "moral" is not a concept exclusive to Christ, christianity as a whole or any modern Christian sect. "Good" men have been around since the start of the human race, as probably have been not "good" men. But to attribute modern Christian dogma or thinking exclusively to the Founding Fathers to try to prove and support one's own religious view is not only dishonest, but probably immoral- and incorrect.
"In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills." --Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, 1814
"...we may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814
"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth." --Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short
"The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma." --Abraham Lincoln
"My husband is not a Christian but is a religious man, I think." --Mary Todd Lincoln
"I am approached with the most opposite opinions and advice, and by religious men who are certain they represent the Divine will. ...I hope it will not be irreverent in me to say, that if it be probable that God would reveal his will to others, on a point so connected with my duty, it might be supposed he would reveal it directly to me." --Abraham Lincoln
American Faith said: To represent all religions equally would doom this country to secularism. If you truely feared the LORD, you would acknowledge the neccessity for Protestant doctrine in this country's legal system. Otherwise, you open the floodgates to homosexuality, prostitution, paganism, darwinism, satanism, etc.
No, representing all religions equally is exactly what the Founding Fathers wanted to do. They had experienced first hand what government supported (and proscribed) religion did and wanted nothing of that. And, as far as "opening the floodgates...", well for those who have no heartburn about prostitution (the 'oldest profession'- pre-dating Christ), paganism (actually a religious sect with the same rights as Protestantism), darwinism (actually a theory of biology rather than a religion, although AF would certainly like to demonize it otherwise), satanism (seems the only religion that characterizes/worships Satan as an angel is Christianity), and the many supporters or believers of all the etceteras, would view this "government neutrality" regarding their particular beliefs or vices as a "good thing (tm)". Even if AF, Rev. Falwell, the 700 Club and others don't.
PhillipF stated: In Runkel vs. Winemiller of 1796, the Supreme Court stated...
It seems to me that today, one of our major problems - as far as being a Constitutional Replublic goes - has been the constant degradation of the Constitution itself by "judicial activism", particularly that of the Supreme Court. Unfortunately, when men who hold a particular belief gain a position of influence over the laws, their beliefs tend to become the law, rather than what should have been if viewed apart from those "beliefs". Pointing out Supreme Court decisions that "prove" that the Christian religion is the basis of our form of government doesn't make it so. I'm sure that the poster could have pointed out many other Supreme Court decisions (e.g. Roe v Wade) that didn't uphold his personal religious views, but of course he doesn't.
"To embarass justice by a multiplicity of laws, or to hazard it by confidence in judges, are the oposite rocks on which all civil institutions have been wrecked." --engraved in the Minnesota State Capitol Outside the supreme Court Chambers
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." --James Madison
When judicial appointments are premised on whether the appointee will rule in favor of the PC socialist left or the bigoted, religious zealots on the right, rather than their knowledge of Constitutional law and their upholding the Constitution as written (without adding their own personal "twist" to it), then we get what we have today- the best legislatures and judiciary that money can buy. Which then trashes the very underpinnings of the Republic.
Again, American Faith spews: The intentions of the Founding Fathers make a good history lesson but should not take precedence over what is necessary in this day and age. They were human beings, not gods, and it is wrong to worship every word they spoke as so many do today.
An interesting comment, coming from one who avows to "worship" another being's every word as supposedly written- not contemporaneously, but over ensuing centuries of supposition and rumor. Most of us who feel strongly about the founding principles of this country, don't "worship" their intentions or words, just feel that they are well worth being guided by in establishing and operating a government of dissimilar people.
As far as establishing a viable, long-term form of government that would withstand assaults by the very "Christian" zealots and others who would attack it, I'll put my faith in the Founding Fathers anyday, as opposed to the bigotry and zealotry that has been the history of "Christian" religions.
"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst; every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in; but this attempts to stride beyond the grave, and seeks to pursue us into eternity." --Thomas Paine
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church." --Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason. [Gee, do you think that ol' Tom read that passage in the Sermon on the Mount that goes something like: When you pray, do not pray in public as the Pharisees do, but go to your room and pray in secret, for the Father hears in secret.]
"The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion." --Thomas Paine
"The Bible is a book that has been read more and examined less than any book that ever existed." --Thomas Paine
"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus." --Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, 1820
"The truth is that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words." --Thomas Jefferson
american spirit asks: How can people who take an oath of office to protect and defend this country allow this cultural coup d'etat to happen?
Are we to assume that is a purely rhetorical question, and not an outright indication of the extremely low level of your IQ? Apparently you have never heard of:
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. -- Lord Acton (1887)
"Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." -- Daniel Webster
american spirit continues... and even worse, we're letting them get away with it.
"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." --Benjamin Franklin
If you have been voting for politicians who promise to give you goodies at someone else's expense, then you have no right to complain when they take your money and give it to someone else, including themselves. -- Thomas Sowell (1992)
PhillipF said: Do those actions and statements by Jefferson in any way resemble the so-called "Separation of Church and State" myth perpetuated by the A.C.L.U.? Not a chance. The A.C.L.U. is a communist front group, which means they are faithless, which means they have absolutely no problem with lying to promote their agenda and to trick the people out of their rights.
I can understand your heartburn over the ACLU. A lot of people, on all sides of the issues, seem to have problems with individual cases brought by the ACLU. I am probably one of those, though for differing reasons than PhillipF. The only comfort I take in the fact that the ACLU p*sses off a lot of people is that fact that they p*ss off a lot of people on both sides of the aisle. It could be a case of "Even a broken clock is right twice a day" or it could be that if they are upsetting people on all sides of the issues, then maybe there is something to their agenda- although I personally rather think they have been taken over by the liberal leftist PC socialists, just as Christianity has been taken over by the arrogant, bigoted Bible thumping zealots. But then, again, that's just my view.
BTTT
well now